Anti Team Green Stans - Tumblr Posts

The ASOIAF fandom is so funny about discourse; both in topics and reactions. The other main fandom I frequent on Tumblr is Tolkien, and the difference is remarkable.

For instance, in the story of the Fall of Numenor, there's a story about the usurpation of a woman that leads to tragedy. I'm talking, of course, about Tar-Míriel. She was the rightful queen of Numenor, but was usurped by her cousin Ar-Pharazôn, who caused the destruction of Numenor.

There is not a single person in the Tolken fandom who argues that Ar-Pharazôn was in the right, was actually a good person, or that Tar-Míriel deserved to be usurped. Granted, the story isn't actually the same as that of the Dance, but the bare bones are pretty similar.

Tar-Míriel isn't a morally gray character like Rhaenyra, in fact we know very little about her, but the parts we do know are good. However, both Rhaenyra and Tar-Míriel were declared their fathers' heirs despite the existence of close male relatives. They were both usurped and ultimately killed (Míriel indirectly) by a male relative.

Ar-Pharazôn and Aegon II are both written as almost cartoonishly evil. They both were horrible rulers and warmongers. Their reigns caused massive tragedies; Aegon II and his faction caused the deaths of the dragons and Ar-Pharazôn's actions caused Iluvatar to destroy Numenor.

Now, I'm not saying that these two stories are meant to be connected or paralleled, they simple capture a similar story pattern rooted in history. My point is that the ASOIAF fandom has a major issue.

The greens are not secretly heroes, good people, or morally superior to the blacks in any way, shape, or form. The obsession of the ASOIAF fandom to turn them into more "sympathetic" characters is ridiculous. Fandoms like the Tolkien one are able to embrace a character being a villain without trying to turn them into a hero.

It's so frustrating because this obsession with making the greens into protagonists damages fandom discourse. It's turned the Dance into a cheap "choose your team" issue, rather than a story of the damage of misogyny, the patriarchy, and warring lords. The arguments over which team is right is absurd and creates a space were misogyny is fostered and encouraged (even some TB fans)

I know, a majority of my posts are complaining about TG and their stans, so I'm guilty of perpetuating the cycle. But there's a difference between analysis of a character and arguing with people's rotten takes and just reducing the story to team discourse; I try my best to avoid the latter.

I'm sure a large part of this issue can be traced to HOTD, but I think it's indicative of deeper problem in the fandom. People reduce the issues in the main books to "who's gonna take the throne" rather than actually addressing things. They're so comfortable spouting misogyny in regards to Daenerys and Arya. The ASOIAF fandom has deeper issues that are being exacerbated by the writing decisions of HOTD and, before that, GOT.

I find it interesting how the same people who support literal usurpation are so pissy about how Rhaenyra "got Otto removed" as Hand. As if Rhaenyra had this whole conspiracy in place instead of simply defending herself and her claim.

Otto was already getting on Viserys' bad side due to his constant haranguing to get Aegon made heir. The spying on Rhaenyra was the last straw after two years of trying to undermine her and Viserys' wishes.

TG stans trying to portray this as a massive injustice is another instance of them being insanely hypocritical. Otto wasn't a good Hand, he wasn't some kind of marxist reformer trying to better the kingdom. He was a manipulative and ambitious snake who was constantly plotting to better his family's position and ultimately get his blood on the throne.

Otto was Rhaenyra's biggest political rival by the time of episode three. She knew he wanted her deposed and married off to some lord away from KL, so she took action. He wasn't just harassing Viserys, he was having a teenage girl stalked to try to catch her in a compromising position.

Otto started the rivalry and the use of underhanded methods and he lost, go cry about it. Rhaenyra was protecting herself, but it was Viserys who made the call to remove Otto as Hand. Viserys isn't just a puppet controlled by Rhaenyra, he's the king. He may not be as proactive as other kings and is willfully blind to issues in his family, but he's his own person with autonomy.

TG stans are bitter that Rhaenyra was beating their faction before the battle lines were fully drawn. Otto played his hand and lost, just like the greens lost the war. Aside from that, their anger over Otto's removal from court shows yet another facet of their hypocrisy. They're bitching about an "injustice" while rooting for literal treason. TG stans are unreal lmao

Why do you think women like Aegon? I mean, they want a r*pist and and it's just weird.

I honestly have no idea how he has stans lmao. I understand liking a character who's a rapist, I like Ramsay Bolton and Euron Greyjoy as characters; I think they're interesting antagonists. But it's one thing to enjoy a character as a villain and a completely other thing to support, make excuses for, and deny the actions of a character.

Aegon is sympathetic to an extent; he had a fairly difficult childhood, with a father who was distant at best and a mother who physically abused him. However, he has an established pattern of dealing with his issues in destructive ways: bullying Aemond as a child and assaulting women and dealing in child trafficking as an adult. He's very much a textbook tragic backstory villain.

The issue with his portrayal on HOTD is that they went to far in trying to make him sympathetic. Hess even tried to excuse his raping of women. There's a deeper issue in HOTD's writing, just like there's a deeper issue with Aegon's fan base.

There are people with rape kinks, so I could see the attraction there for people who are into that. However, Aegon's stans aren't just indulging a kink, they're actively defending a rapist, so I don't believe that's the reason.

I'm not a psychologist, but I do know that often attraction to rapists/criminals in general is a symptom of some mental health things. I'm not saying that everyone who stans Aegon has a mental illness, but it is a thing in real life. I don't know if there is a connection there and I don't really want to speculate so I'll just leave that there lol.

Anyway anon, I wish I could answer your question in a real way, but the truth is I don't know. There's a lot of layers to the human mind, and however Aegon stans rationalize loving him so much isn't something I understand. I know Tom Glynn-Carney's looks probably factored into it, so maybe it's just an extension of the whole babygirl trend in fandoms.

On the "Choose a Side" Discourse

With HBO leaning veryyyy heavily into "pick a side" for their promos, the "no team" people are crawling out of the woodwork. I want to preface this post by saying that I'm not saying people shouldn't have favorite characters who aren't mine, nor that people should just be totally invested in fandom discourse.

I already made a post about the issues with the arguments of the "no team" people, so I'll just summarize my thoughts from that real quick. A majority of their arguments and metas are thinly veiled anti Rhaenyra thoughts. That's still true of this new wave of this group.

Now, one thing I will agree with them on is: GRRM did not write this story to be one of choose a side. However, that is not because the Blacks and the Greens are equally bad or the Targaryens are all evil. No, it's because the Greens were always in the wrong and GRRM makes this abundantly clear to us in F&B.

Let's look at some facts from the Dance. While male primogeniture is tradition, it's not the law; the king's word is law, something ASOIAF has established time and again. The Greens took the throne through underhanded ways. They left Viserys' body to rot for days while they prepared for Aegon's coronation to prevent Rhaenyra from learning and coming to KL. They forced the smallfolk to attend and most didn't cheer for Aegon, with some even calling for Rhaenyra while most were confused and angry.

Aemond drew first blood by killing the unarmed thirteen year old envoy, Lucerys Velaryon. A majority of the realm declared for Rhaenyra; 53 houses supported her, while only 28 supported Aegon. The Greens committed the greatest atrocities of the Dance: Aemond burning the Riverlands and Daeron massacring Tumbleton. They also committed the greater number of atrocities.

The Greens also lost the war. The Blacks weren't just fighting for Rhaenyra, they fought for her heirs as well. This is why they swore to her and Jacaerys; later for Aegon III after the deaths of his older brothers. The Black forces continued to fight after Rhaenyra's murder and took KL. Aegon was murdered by his own men when the Blacks were marching on KL; in other words, the Greens knew they were beat, so they killed Aegon in an attempt to save themselves. Since Aegon left no heirs aside from Jaehaera, Aegon III was crowned and married to Jaehaera. The Blacks won the war.

Aegon the Usurper's bloodline is destroyed with the deaths of Jaehaera and Gaemon Palehair. This is the final affirmation of the Greens being in the wrong. GRRM's books punish usurpers by wiping out their bloodlines; Maegor and Robert Baratheon being the most obvious examples. Aegon and all the Greens have no descendants, their bloodline is dead.

Rhaenyra's bloodline, on the other hand, continues all the way through to the main series. Daenerys Targaryen, the most powerful character in the series, is her descendant, as is Jon Snow (unconfirmed as of now in the books) who is another of the key five. Rhaenyra may have died, but her faction won the war and her bloodline will save the world through her two greatest descendants (alongside the rest of the key five).

The Dance of the Dragons is, ultimately, a story of the damage the patriarchy does and how misogyny is destructive to the world. The Dance caused the death of the dragons and a great loss of power for women in the realm. Queen consorts after Rhaenyra had markedly less power and there was a drop in female leaders of the great houses. The loss of the dragons caused the weakening of magic in the world as a whole.

The Dance isn't about who your favorite war criminal is, nor is it about the evil of the Targaryens. It's about misogyny; something HOTD seems to have forgotten. Even before they started pushing TB vs TG so hard, they still missed the point.

It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra isn't a perfect, or even a good, person. It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra is non-conforming, plays the political game, and exploits her father's favor. Rhaenyra could have been as pious and well-behaved as Naerys and the Greens still would have usurped her. Rhaenyra could have had children with Laenor, and still the Greens would have usurped her. HOTD tries to paint the usurpation as partially being on Rhaenyra and her choices, but nothing Rhaenyra could have done would have been good enough.

The Blacks are the protagonists of the Dance. Are they perfect? No. Are they heroes? No. GRRM loves his gray characters, the Blacks are no exception. If you people want a story with black and white morality and perfect protagonists, go read another book. Just because people aren't perfect and don't operate exclusively in what's right according to our modern standards doesn't mean they aren't the protagonists.

In conclusion: there isn't a TB vs TG discourse in the Dance because the Greens are the antagonists and completely in the wrong. The point of the Dance is that the misogyny of the Greens damaged the realm. Rhaenyra is the rightful queen, there is no actual argument for Aegon or any of his allies.

Rhaenyra is the rightful queen to Westeros, go cry to George if you don't like it.

I wanted to know why so many people believe in the theory that Aemond is the Stark ancestor

So sorry this took me so long to answer anon!

I would say that it's driven purely out of a hatred for the Greens' ending. GRRM shows how they were in the wrong by wiping out their bloodline, so TG stans want to basically retcon that.

Certain TG stans are very obsessed with the thought of having the moral high ground over the Blacks. GOT chose to establish the Starks as these paragons of virtue and morality, basically having them have the final say on what's moral. So in order to try to put their favs in a morally superior light they want to connect them to the Starks, even though the Starks supported Rhaenyra.

They also want to remove the fact that Rhaenyra's true victory is in her descendants, namely Daenerys. Because TG stans tend to be anti Targaryen and anti Dany (not all of them, but a majority), they really like the show's ending. So they think that having Aemond's bloodline be the Starks, they will have both the moral and literal victory over Rhaenyra.

☠️

https://www.tumblr.com/littlemisssatanist/743617554466144256/on-the-topic-of-me-being-team-green?source=share

I love how this person's excuse for "I'm not a misogynist" is that they take the woman's side in the AITAH tiktok videos lmao. Like this person is out here preaching media literacy while misunderstanding Rhaenyra and her story fundamentally.

This person is just regurgitating the same old TG bullshit. "Rhaenyra stole Baela's birthright. Rhaenyra had bastards. Rhaenyra wanted to marry a man of her own choosing. Rhaenyra wasn't a perfect modern feminist. Rhaenyra didn't do enough. Rhaenyra didn't roll over and take it. Rhaenyra went to Dragonstone. Rhaenyra thought she was the exception." But also "Alicent is a victim therefore everything she did is excusable and ok. It's ok that Alicent actively endangered her children over and over again. Alicent upholding the patriarchy constantly is ok because she's a victim. Criston Cole isn't an incel, Rhaenyra victimized him." Like do TG stans not have any original thoughts?

This person says she hates being called a misogynist, fine. But she's blatantly holding Rhaenyra to ridiculous standards. She defends Alicent for all her deplorable actions in later life because "she's a victim", acknowledges that Rhaenyra is a victim but expects her to be a proto-feminist and condemns her for not.

Another example of the double standard OP sets against Rhaenyra is how she calls her "stupid" like ten times during the post. However, she defends Alicent's objectively dumb decision to "protect" her children by causing a war and teaching them treason. Like, the fact that OP can't see how ridiculous these arguments are is...amazing honestly.

The fact is, the Greens are fundamentally sexist. They usurped Rhaenyra because of her gender, Otto literally admitted it at the beginning of the show. Literally none of the hoops she or any other TG stans and Rhaenyra antis jump through to justify the Greens change the facts of the story. It doesn't matter that they don't like Rhaenyra, it doesn't matter that they hate Daemon, it doesn't matter that they love Alicent. The fact is Rhaenyra was usurped because of her gender. She could have been literally perfect and it still would have happened.

A final thing I want to touch on is how OP condemned Laenor for not impregnating Rhaenyra? Like OP says she's queer, so I would think that she would understand Laenor's situation, but apparently not.

HOTD established that Rhaenyra and Laenor tried to have kids and couldn't. That implies that Laenor just couldn't do it, whether it's infertility or he simply couldn't have sex with Rhaenyra. Like I'm sorry, but blaming Laenor for the situation his parents forced him into, knowing that he was gay, is fucked up.

OP wrote a long, self-righteous post about how TB stans are sooo wrong and Rhaenyra is soooo awful. However, anything criticizing Alicent is sexist and OP is always on women's sides ok? Except of course when a man willingly sleeps with a drunk teenager and decides to hate her because she won't throw away her life and safety to soothe his pride.

First off: I did read the book, I don't know where you got that I somehow didn't? Literally everything I said is from the book, you just seem to not like the facts of the story lmao.

"...You were a fool to come alone." [Aemond]

"Were I not alone, you would not have come," said Daemon.

"Yet you are, and here I am."

Fire and Blood: The Dying of the Dragons - Rhaenyra Triumphant

Wow, look how brave Aemond is: he only came to fight because he knew Daemon would be alone. Such an amazingly brave man. And that's not all: the whole story is full of Aemond's daring deeds, like killing an unarmed thirteen year old envoy, and burning defenseless villages. What a paragon of bravery and honor, no wonder you love him!

Moving on, Aemond wasn't the threat, Vhagar was. Daemon was concerned with getting rid of Vhagar permanently, as she was the biggest threat to the Blacks. Aemond was just the unhinged bitch boy who hid from Daemon until he was sure he was alone.

Yes, Daemon did make it a suicide mission, because to kill a dragon of Vhagar's size is extremely difficult and usually costs the killer their life. We saw this with Addam Velaryon when he went to kill Vermithor, though he wasn't as big as Vhagar, he was still one quite a bit older than Seasmoke. If Daemon knew he could draw out Aemond without their dragons, he would have, but Aemond was too much of a coward to meet him without Vhagar.

Also where the fuck did you get the idea that Aemond was unarmed? He literally came in his armor ready to fight, that typically means having a goddamn sword. If Aemond came to a fight without a sword then he's a complete idiot as well as a coward. Just because he had chained himself down and didn't think to go for the sword, doesn't mean he was unarmed.

GRRM has claimed Daemon as his favorite Targaryen to write in F&B. He wrote him to be a great warrior, so it's not me and other TB stans calling Daemon a badass, it's GRRM himself. If you don't like how the story was written, go cry to George.

As for Jaehaerys: how is a sword fight comparable to a fight on dragons? That's like comparing hand-to-hand with an archery contest. If Daemon had met Aemond in a sword fight, Daemon would have won much easier.

The reason why Daemon had the victory was because he chose to die, Aemond was killed. The choice is the defining factor here. Aemond was killed, Daemon let himself die, those are two very different fates. I don't know how else to explain this to you, but in my experience all Aemond stans lack media literacy so it probably doesn't matter. GRRM himself could tell you this and you'd still be bitching about how Aemond died a coward's death.

Just saw a tiktok about how Aemond dies in the Battle Above the Gods Eye and the comments are full of Greenies complaining lmao. Here's the tiktok for those who can't/don't want to follow the link:

The comments are full of people going, "Well Daemon died in that battle too😠." Like bro (gn), Daemon was in his fifties during this fight and Vhagar was over twice the size of Caraxes; it's not that impressive that Daemon didn't survive. It wasn't even Aemond who killed Daemon, that was gravity lmao. Aemond just sat there looking scared.

TG stans will always try their best to minimize just how pathetic their faves truly are. Even when they're admitting that Aemond was being stupid, they try to defend him.

that you bake of this

I find it interesting how the first poster is accusing groups of TB stans of not handling criticism, when TG stans (particularly Alicent stans) are the ones most often "melting and crying" over criticism.

Pointing out Alicent's hypocrisy and cruelty, the fact that Aegon is a rapist, and Aemond was a coward and cruel are all met with screaming. They flat out deny any facts of canon that show how awful their favs are. I've been told to kill myself multiple times just for pointing out actual canon things Alicent has done. Like, the call is coming from inside the house TG lmao.

I don't deny that there are certain people who claim to be TB but have absolutely braindead takes (namely certain Daemon stans, which is very sad). But the fact of the matter is, those people are a very small percentage. The percentage of insane people who can't stand criticism is wayyyyyyy larger in the TG fandom.

Most of TG stans' so-called criticism of Rhaenyra is just calling her a whore, saying she roll over and take any injustice, and that she's not nice enough. Of course we get annoyed and angry with that, it's not even actual criticism; it's just noise. The few times they actually have valid critiques of Rhaenyra, they still tie it in with calling her a fat whore. Anything of worth they could possibly offer is always completely bound to their intense hatred of Rhaenyra.

No, Rhaenyra isn't perfect, we don't expect people to just blindly worship her. She's not a good person, she's classist, and she wrongfully ordered the executions of innocent people twice. However, she's the rightful heir, that's literally a fact. We expect Rhaenyra to be supported because she's a victim of the patriarchy and misogynists. She doesn't have to be your favorite character, but the fact remains that she's the rightful queen and the Greens are usurpers and warmongers.

As for the whole "team smallfolk" idea: it's basically always used as an excuse to be blatantly hateful towards Rhaenyra. The "team smallfolk" and "team neutral" people never attack the Greens with the same vigor as they do Rhaenyra and her family. In fact, most of them even say that they're "green leaning".

The contradiction in this idea of supporting the smallfolk and the Greens simultaneously is that if the Greens hadn't interfered, the Dance and the deaths of the thousands of smallfolk wouldn't have happened. Rhaenyra and the Blacks didn't start the war, the Greens did. The Greens committed the most atrocities and refused every single offer of peace Rhaenyra offered.

I think the second poster is hilarious though. I don't know if they're TG, I assume so based on the subreddit. I don't know if they meant to, but they pointed out just how hypocritical the first poster's mini rant was. The first poster tacked on "Also they hate "Team Smallfolk," and the second poster pointed out how most of TG also just don't give a shit. Even if the second poster isn't TG and was just going to that subreddit to start something, there are still so many TG stans who admit that the smallfolk don't matter to them. I even had an anon once tell me that the maids Aegon raped don't matter to them as an answer to why they like and support him. I'm not going to say that they're right on not caring, but at least they're not hiding behind that false moral superiority.

Like I said earlier, the Greens were the ones who caused the deaths of thousands of smallfolk, both indirectly by starting the war and directly through Aemond and Daeron. The Greens didn't care about the smallfolk in any way, they only cared about power. Any TG stans who act like they're "better for the smallfolk" are delusional.

To sum up my thoughts: the first poster is projecting. Every single one of their criticisms apply better to their own group. The delusion and false superiority that poster displays are hilarious and frustrating.

https://www.tumblr.com/the-daily-dreamer/703632217679790080/aemond-and-aegon-should-go-full-uno-reverse-on?source=share

It's hilarious how TG fans don't get how A. Rhae's boys are all legal claimed by THE KING and their paternal grandfather and B. if believed, the king would have had to put ALL OF THEM (including baby Joffery and a five- and six-year-old) to death or exile. While Aemond is a kinslayer of a peace envoy and was a little boy and SUPPOSE to be granted protection from harm due to being a peace envoy.

See I think they do know, they just don't care. TG stans only care about morality and honestly if they can try to use it to make their favs look better.

To them, Rhaenyra daring to choose the father of her children and not getting the punishment they believe she deserves is worse than anything Aegon and Aemond have done. They believe that Luke, a literal child and envoy, deserved his death simply because his parents weren't married.

It doesn't matter that in the eyes of the law, historians, and literally every lord except the greens, Luke is Laenor's son. It doesn't matter that his life and those of his brothers and mother were constantly put in danger by what they were saying. Yes, everyone knew, but no one gave a flying fuck, and that pisses them off. Everyone should follow the same archaic and repressive ideals Alicent adores, except when they apply to men.

It is disturbing that they want to compare Rhaenyra protecting her children from that harpy named Alicent and her monstrous sons to Aemond murdering an unarmed boy. Aemond attacked Luke unprovoked while he was under the protection of Westerosi laws and conventions (protection of envoys and kinslaying). Like mother like son I suppose. Aemond is a mommy's boy, so it's no surprise he'd emulate her blatant disrespect and disregarding of actual laws and the lives of innocents.

TG stans constantly complain about how "Rhaenyra was a threat" to Alicent's children. What I find interesting about that is not once in any scene of HOTD does Rhaenyra threaten her siblings' lives. Meanwhile, Alicent and her sons threaten Rhaenyra's children's lives in almost every scene they're in/discussed.

In episode 5: Alicent summons barely born Joffrey to her chambers; knowing how vulnerable newborns are. Criston pits teenage Aegon against prepubescent Jace and Aegon would have seriously hurt Jace if not for Harwin's interference. Alicent harasses both Viserys and Aegon about how Rhaenyra's children are bastards; something that could very likely lead to them being executed or exiled if Viserys chose to listen to her.

In the scene where Aemond loses his eye, that happens because Luke was trying to defend his brother. Aemond not only was about to bash Jace's head in with a rock, but also was screaming about how he and Luke would die screaming like Harwin. Then Alicent tries to stab out Luke's eye, something that would kill him (she was holding the knife to thrust it down and stab, not slash like Luke did).

From the first episode Rhaenyra's children are present, Alicent and the other greens are threatening their safety and lives. Even in the scenes TG stans point to the most often as "evidence" of the "danger" posed to Alicent's children, it's Jace and Luke who are actually in danger of being killed. It's Rhaenyra's sons who are being constantly threatened by the greens and it's her son who is killed first in the Dance. The greens are the ones who threaten and kill innocent children, not Rhaenyra.

Exactly! The majority of the lords of Westeros fought for Rhaenyra. They didn't complain or petition Viserys to change his mind. No one cared except the greens.

If Aegon, Alicent, and the other greens had just not committed treason, they would have been perfectly safe. Rhaenyra even offered to pardon them even after Aegon crowned himself! Rhaenyra never took any steps to endanger her siblings until after Aemond killing Lucerys.

Bringing up Rhaenyra's children and their legitimacy doesn't actually work in this universe. There are no paternity tests, they only have Laenor's word, no matter what the boys look like!

Adoption was a thing in the Medieval time; Luke was chosen by Laenor and Corlys as their heir, that's all you need in that time. The lords of Westeros accepted that, all that mattered was Laenor and Corlys' word. The only reason the greens and Vaemond pushed it was because they saw it as a possible way to undermine Rhaenyra.

That's just the case of Luke and the case of Driftmark, Jace and the IT is a completely different matter. The IT passes through Rhaenyra; she's the Targaryen, she's the heir. Therefore, all that matters for Jace is that he's Rhaenyra's son, legitimate or not. He's a Targaryen and the oldest son of the heir of the throne and Viserys acknowledged him as Rhaenyra's heir.

Why did Cersei order all of Robert's bastards to be killed? Because they were his blood, therefore they had claim to the throne, legitimate or not. So in Rhaenyra's case, Jace is a perfectly allowable and acceptable heir to the IT. He was declared legitimate by Laenor and Viserys, if Rhaenyra's word isn't good enough. The lords of Westeros acknowledged Jace as Rhaenyra's trueborn son and heir, as did all the maesters and historians after.

Though his fifteenth nameday was still half a year away, Prince Jacaerys had proved himself a man and a worthy heir to the Iron Throne."

Fire & Blood: The Dying of the Dragons - A Son for a Son

Wow, look at how the realm so clearly was unwilling to accept Jace as heir. It's almost like the greens were just making shit up to justify their treason.

I don’t think people understand why Alicent was so bothered by Rhaenyra having illegitimate children as much as she was. Yes, part of it was coming from a place of frustration at Rhaenyra for scoffing at tradition and not honouring her marriage vows, but Alicent’s primary focus was on the politics - and how it put her own children in mortal danger.

Painting: The Execution of Lady Jane Grey

You see, if Rhaenyra had legitimate children with Ser Laenor, then the Greens would have no reason whatsoever to try and replace Rhaenyra as heir to the throne with Aegon. They, in truth, would’ve been usurpers. But as we know, Rhaenyra having bastards not only weakened her own claim to the throne but by it, she has given her enemies a legitimate reason to support Aegon instead of her. Just think about it - nearly every lord in the realm has a bastard of his own. If Rhaenyra puts her own bastards on the throne, it sets a precedent - that bastards can have a claim to a title just as much as legitimate children can. This of course presents a HUGE crisis to the lords who probably have multiple bastards running around, now all potential heirs to his house. Some lords might even have older bastard brothers, brothers who would potentially be better rulers than them if they were trueborn. Brothers who would follow Rhaenyra’s suit and place themselves in positions of great power and usurp their trueborn sibling’s claims. No doubt, this would lead to violence, in-fighting, bloodshed and the potential extinction of houses and bloodlines that go back thousands of years.

So naturally, any lord who would be fearful of this playing out would naturally ally themselves with the trueborn children of House Targaryen - Alicent’s children. Whether the Greens want it or not, Aegon, Helaena, Aemond and Daeron would become unwilling figureheads for rebellions against Rhaenyra. These rebels would rally themselves around Alicent’s children, demand them to be crowned instead of Rhaenyra, and of course, Rhaenyra would have absolutely no choice but to execute her half-siblings, to save herself and her children. Whether Alicent’s children want it or not, they are living, breathing, constant challenges to Rhaenyra’s throne.

It’s the exact predicament Mary I of England faced - a Catholic queen who had just deposed her Protestant cousin, the Lady Jane Grey, Mary had no choice but to order 16 year old Jane’s execution in 1554. Despite having Jane imprisoned, rebels kept on popping up around England, all marching on London to dethrone Mary in Jane’s name, even though Jane herself was oblivious to what was happening because she was behind bars and had already relinquished her crown and declared for Mary. Mary was hoping to restore Catholicism to England and was planning to marry a foreign prince so she could provide England with a Catholic heir - but she knew so long as Jane lived, Mary, her future children and England would never know peace. So she reluctantly signed Jane’s death warrant, causing the death of one of England’s most tragic figures.

This would be the fate of Alicent’s children if Rhaenyra ever ascended the throne. No matter how good willed Queen Rhaenyra would be to her siblings, it wouldn’t last. The minute the first lord lit the beacon of rebellion and openly called Rhaenyra’s sons illegitimate usurpers of Alicent’s trueborn children with no right to the throne, Alicent’s children would’ve been executed. There’s absolutely no way Rhaenyra would ever chose Aegon, Helaena, Aemond and Daeron’s lives over her own living children - what mother would?

Almost always it's the usual suspects: Stansas, Broccolis or Bobby B/ Stannis The Mannis stans.

Can't live without Dany and the Targs. Can't live with them either.

Well of course, those are the most braindead groups in this fandom lmao. They're all just so bitter about how much more influential to the plot Dany and her family are.

The fact that both the HOTD writers and the TG stans are trying to spin Aegon II as "team smallfolk" is ridiculous. Aegon is literally a serial rapist. He doesn't care about the smallfolk, throwing that in after the shit he pulled last season makes no sense. I know we joked about people whitewashing TG into Marxist heroes but goddamn.

Rhaenyra's Victory

The "nobody won the Dance" argument is so ridiculous and just flat out wrong. Certain fans (read TG stans), constantly argue that, because Rhaenyra and Aegon both died, the Dance had no victor. GRRM clearly disputes this in both F&B and ASOIAF.

In F&B, the end of the Dance is clearly in favor of the Blacks, despite Rhaenyra's murder. Cregan Stark and the rest of the Black forces took KL, forced the last of the Green supporters to surrender, and placed Aegon III (Rhaenyra's oldest surviving child) on the throne. After that, the last of Aegon II's line died with Jaehaera, leaving Rhaenyra's as the only legitimate and surviving royal line. That means, in simple terms, Rhaenyra's family won the war. They were the survivors of the war and ruled for the rest of the Targaryen Dynasty.

Speaking of the rest of the dynasty, there's a second way GRRM makes Rhaenyra's victory clear, and that's through Daenerys Targaryen. Despite the Blacks winning the final conflict of the Dance, male primogeniture was accepted and reinforced throughout the following kings' reigns. Baela and Rhaena were passed over as options to be Aegon III's heirs before his marriage to Daenaera. Daena and her sisters were passed over in favor of Viserys II and his children. Vaella was dismissed in favor of Aegon V. The first woman to be named heir to the IT since Rhaenyra was Dany, something done purely because she was Viserys III's final surviving relative (no, the relatives in other houses don't count).

No matter the reason Dany was named as heir, she eventually succeeded her brother as the head of House Targaryen and the rightful ruler of Westeros. After becoming the head of the house, she awoke dragons from stone and became Khaleesi of her own Khalasar. Dany then began a conquest across Slaver's Bay and eventually conquered Meereen and became its queen. Thus she became a conqueror and queen in her own right.

Despite House Targaryen embracing the sexist Andal traditions about succession, the future of the house now rests on the shoulders of a woman. Dany is the final ruler belonging to the house, a queen regnant who overcame every man who stood in her way. Not only that, but she awakened dragons from stone, thus beginning to heal the damage done by the Dance and the greens' misogyny.

Dany, a woman, is the savior of House Targaryen and arguably one of its most powerful rulers to date. She not only is continuing its legacy, but is bettering it. Rhaenyra's legacy is her female descendant who will save not only the house but the whole goddamn world. Dany enacts radical social change in Essos, rules her city well (as much as she can with the slavers' interference), and brought dragons, the key to defeating the Others, back into the world. Daenerys is Rhaenyra's final victory over the greens' misogyny and treason.

Targ stans (sadly, Fire & Blood opened the gates for Daenerys’ haters to claim an irrelevant and unremarkable character as their favorite from House Targaryen, and yes, I’m including Team Black) genuinely act like GRRM came up with the Targaryens BEFORE Daenerys and just coincidentally had Aegon the Conqueror, Aegon III, Queen Rhaenys, Alysanne, Rhaena the Black Bride saying or doing the same or similar things as Daenerys.

Like do they think GRRM wrote Daenerys saying “a queen must listen to all, the highborn and the low…” in ASOS (2000) and then wrote Alysanne saying “above all else, a queen must know how to listen” in Fire & Blood (2018) but came up with Alysanne first ?

What came first in the GRRM’s head, Daenerys visiting the sick, bathing them with her hands, burying them with her own hands, feeding them water from her own skin (ACOK 1999, ADWD 2011), her people thinking her touch is magic (ASOS, 2000), or Aegon III visiting those stricken by the Winter Fever, sitting beside them, holding their hands and cooling their fevers with damp cloths, those who survived speaking of Aegon’s “healing hands” (Fire & Blood, 2018).

It is incredible to me that they are so stupid and illiterate that they think an in universe historical volume that GRRM wrote just for fun is somehow more important than the events of ASOIAF proper. These are people calling themselves book readers. And again, these dweebs are the only idiots brave enough to spew this bs in the fandom. No Stark fan thinks Brandon the Builder came before Bran Stark in GRRM’s head. Every Stark stan knows that the historical Brandons were ALL built around Ned and Catelyn’s son.

House Targaryen is solely centered around Daenerys and definitely not the other way around, when will shippers and braindead bitches ever get this fact drilled into their heads ?

Exactly, like yes watsonianly/in-world Daenerys would have never existed without any of her ancestors....that's just logical and so obvious it's insulting how people feel the need to point that out to just shut down any discourse abt why Dany herself is special.

It's just plain fact that Dany herself was CONCIEVED AND CREATED before any of her ancestors were and they are written as they are in F&B, PatQ, AWoIaF because GRRM wanted to bring some form of heritage and background that provides more meaning & urgency to Dany's present plot. Yes those Targs have impressive feats or interesting stories of ther own, but they have those because those are meant to explain Dany and Westeros and the relationship there on both sides. Historically and personally.

girl, you have a way with words

Can they make a post with their opinion on young alicent please? (English is not my first language, I hope I used the pronouns correctly. If not, I apologize)

Hello! I’m sorry this took me so long, I had written out this entire response and somehow tumblr fucking ate it.

So for starters, you didn’t quite get the pronoun use right, but that’s totally fine and I really appreciate you trying! Pronouns and the english language are a bitch to learn. So when someone’s pronouns are ‘they/them’ those pronouns only replace gendered pronouns- (he/his/he’s/she/her/hers/she’s). Non gendered pronouns (you/your/you’re/yours) are entirely fine. So this would’ve been ‘Can you make a post with your opinion on young Alicent?’. If you were then to talk about me, it’d be ‘I asked watcherintheweyr to make a post about their opinion on young Alicent’ or ‘Watcherintheweyr made a post explaining their thoughts on young Alicent because I asked them.’

Don’t feel bad pls- the English language is a total bitch, and genuinely you put more effort into trying to get it right than a lot of native english speakers who I interact with. And I really do appreciate it.

anyways, on to your question!

So while I have a lot of sympathy for young Alicent in a lot of ways- I don’t like her, and I never did. For starters, I absolutely despise that the show isolated Rhaenyra and made Alicent her only friend and companion, which was untrue in the books and also makes no sense for how royalty works. Rhaenyra, as the only princess, would’ve have a sizeable ‘household’ of young ladies around her age. Those girls would’ve been essentially her helpers and her companions- she would’ve been in lessons alongside them, and they would’ve worked together in matters of court, politics, and events. Canonically she had a gaggle of young girls she was very close to- to the point that when (SPOILERS) Rhaenyra is murdered by Aegon, her ‘youngest and gentlest’ lady, Elinda Massey, purportedly gouges out her eyes from the trauma and horror.

Also, I despise that Laena Velaryon’s story and importance in Rhaenyra’s life was sacrificed for Alicent Hightower- including their deeply hinted romantic connection.

Anyways, moving on. Alicent Hightower.

Ultimately, I think that Alicent is a tragic example of what happens when you buy into oppressive regimes- further and enable them because you think you’ll be rewarded for sacrificing others to those regimes, and realize far too late that you won’t. She has 100% bought into the Faith of the Seven and Otto and Westeros’ sexism, and she serves that system in the hope that she’ll be rewarded for it, for playing by the rules and sabotaging the power and autonomy of other women- especially Rhaenyra. And all the seeds and groundwork are THERE from episode one if you pay attention. Alicent is a self-righteous hypocrite and not nearly as intelligent as she thinks she is- and she is also a victim of Otto, Viserys, and the patriarchy. I also think she was never a good friend to Rhaenyra- and that she never really knew Rhaenyra.

(This post is going to be VERY long, so buckle up)

In episode one, we see very quickly that Alicent doesn’t understand Rhaenyra well, if at all. She makes the comment that Rhaenyra is ‘disagreeable’ when she’s worried- and is promptly baffled that Rhaenyra’s worry is not her position or about being ‘overshadowed’ for a son- that Rhaenyra genuinely hopes her father will get the son he’s wanted for her entire life, and that her only true worry is her mother. Emma D’Arcy and Milly Alcock both press that Rhaenyra is fully aware that due to her gender that she isn’t ‘enough’ for her parents or the realm, that she’s seen as lacking or deficient. Alicent doesn’t seem at all aware of this. Furthermore, Alicent’s question is… Odd. At this point in the story, Rhaenyra is only ‘a’ princess. She isn’t the heir- Daemon is. The only ‘overshadowing’ that could occur is Viserys’ already fleeting and inconsistent ‘love’ becoming even less present. And Rhaenyra is already expecting this; but Alicent presses more of Rhaenyra’s ‘position’.

Now bear in mind- in the past 10 years, 14 year old Rhaenyra has had to watch her father insist on and continually risk her mother’s life and health, and she’s had to mourn 5 siblings- some born, others not. So Rhaenyra being ‘disagreeable’ when she’s worried makes sense. But when she doesn’t budge on not wanting to talk about/prioritize her ‘position’, Alicent gets huffy and makes to leave. She then appears to be entirely stunned when Rhaenyra verbatim recites the current passage of history that they are learning from their Septa. This piece of information is given to us to set up and establish Rhaenyra’s clever mind and interest in learning- of the 5 episodes we have of Young!Rhaenyra, she is shown to be actively listening to and learning from her superiors in just about all of them, reading and learning from books in 3 of them, and utilizing courtly intrigue, manners, and speak in 3 of them to shut down opponents or disrespect. And yet Alicent is entirely taken aback by Rhaenyra doing this; which again lends itself to the idea that she doesn’t actually know Rhaenyra very well. In the script, at the end of the episode, it’s also expressed that Alicent doesn’t seem to understand Rhaenyra being stressed/worried about her investiture as heir- in her eyes, Rhaenyra now has everything anyone could want. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra has now been revealed the truth of why Aegon conquered the seven kingdoms- and has now been entrusted with learning to rule and govern the kingdoms, and to nurture and protect the legacy meant to fulfill this prophecy- and she is shown to be very aware of and affected by the weight of this.

Alicent, meanwhile, has become a pawn in her father’s bid for power, and a victim to his ambitions, and to Viserys’ sexism and passivity.

In episode 2, Alicent has been seeing Viserys in secret for six months- and notably, it’s 6 months into their meetings that Viserys expresses that he wishes for her not to tell Rhaenyra, as he doesn’t think she would ‘understand’. We see that she is harming herself and Otto doesn’t appear to care about it in any way more meaningful than why she would do so when she’s the most beautiful girl at court- a thing to be envied and admired. We also in this episode see how fully she has bought into the realm and the Faith’s sexism. When Rhaenyra comes to Alicent about her fears of the plots of the lords to marry her father off again now that his period of mourning is coming to an end, and as such they would be plotting to supplant her. She is struggling, because it’s shown that she is trying to act as heir, to learn and participate- because she WANTS this, wants to be heir, wants to do it and do it well- but Otto undermines and humiliates her, and Viserys simply lets it happen- practically enables it. She expresses her fears of these plots and her frustrations and desire to be the heir, to be more and grasp for more than she would’ve ever been allowed as ‘Viserys’ little girl’.

And Alicent’s response is to dismiss Rhaenyra’s fears- to tell her friend and the named heir to the throne that it ‘isnt their place to question the plots of kings and men’. Because Alicent does not believe women can or should hold genuine power- like she says in episode 9, women are meant to ‘gently guide those who [rule]’. And she does this while she is actively a part of one of those very plots that Rhaenyra fears. Now, bear in mind; I am fully aware that Alicent is a victim to her father’s ambitions, and Viserys’ complicity. It’s not Alicent’s fault what these men do to her. And it’s understandable why Alicent wouldn’t want to tell Rhaenyra, in a lot of ways.

That doesn’t change that both Alicent AND Viserys broke Rhaenyra’s trust and hurt her- and she is shown later to be trying to create distance from them- because they have both shown that Rhaenyra cannot trust them. Viserys because he’s self-serving and blind, and Alicent because her ultimate loyalty and obeisance will always be to her father, not Rhaenyra. And Rhaenyra is keenly aware of this after the reveal, even though it is never made clear to Rhaenyra that Alicent wasn’t seeing Viserys in secret of her own volition. That doesn’t change that for six months, since the *night* of Aemma’s funeral, Alicent was seeing Viserys in secret, whilst dismissing Rhaenyra’s fears of that exact sort of plot to her face. That doesn’t change the fact that Rhaenyra has every right to feel hurt, feel betrayed, and not want anything to do with Alicent- or Viserys, beyond what she cannot avoid.

On a note that’s entirely personal, while I know that Alicent was attempting to share something important to her with Rhaenyra in an attempt to help her feel better, to me, Alicent having Rhaenyra partake of her faith felt… strange. Rhaenyra, who named the dragon she shared a cradle with after a goddess of Old Valyria and who has no idea how to pray in a Sept to the Seven, clearly either is not religious or follows Valyrian faiths- and considering her Valyrian marriage to Daemon, it’s likely the latter. Personally- I would not want a friend of mine to try and have me participate in their religion, and I wouldn’t push them to participate in mine either. For me, that was just uncomfortable; but again that’s a purely personal issue.

In episode 3, we see these traits of Alicent’s repeat, as well as her inability to introspect or consider someone else’s feelings. Immediately in the Godswood she uses her ‘weight’ as queen to disregard Rhaenyra attempting create space and distance between them. And while yes it was on command from the King- the way Alicent does it is almost… Smug. She then attempts to tell Rhaenyra that ‘things need not be this way’- as Rhaenyra, upset, goes to change and ready herself for the hunt, despite the fact that this is the last place she wishes to be. Alicent is upset at the loss of her friend, and likely lonely- but she disregards Rhaenyra’s feelings entirely. This is further compounded by the scene in the carriage.

Despite the fact that she and Alicent are not friends, nor truly even speaking, Rhaenyra, who watched her mother struggle and suffer pregnancies, and lose multiple babes and her life, expresses concern that Alicent is traveling in her condition. In an incredibly clumsy attempt to soothe her concerns, Alicent makes the comment that ‘Aegon came quickly and without fuss.’ Again; i understand that this was a very clumsy attempt to ease Rhaenyra’s worry, however everyone in that carriage sees how poorly the comment lands, and Alicent makes no attempt at apology. ‘Aegon came quickly and without fuss’ is.. very insensitive to say to the girl that lost her mother to the childbed, and especially when you are quite literally sitting in that mother’s place- when you’ve replaced her because her last child killed her and died alongside her. If she had made any attempt at apology (the way Rhaenyra did when she saw a comment she made while expressing her frustrations hurt Alicent in e.4), that would be one thing; but she doesn’t.

Rhaenyra is heir- and canonically the only duty she has balked at is marriage. She is currently desperately holding on to being ‘the heir’ with everything she has- because it is all she has, the only thing that doesn’t make her replaceable with the new family that Viserys is building with Alicent- and as such it’s understandable that she doesn’t wish to go to Aegon’s second Name-day celebration, as she is keenly aware of the thing Viserys is blind to and that Alicent is passive to; the realm considers a 2 year old boy child more valuable and more worthy than the 17 year old princess who has actively been learning to be and acting as heir for three years at this point. Alicent’s uncle, Hobart Hightower, welcomes them by crying out ‘All Hail Aegon the Conqueror-Babe, second of his name!’ and neither Viserys nor Alicent does anything. Hobart is not corrected, nor taken to task, and the crown is rabidly enamored with the two year old child all because his genitalia makes him more ‘valuable’ than Rhaenyra. By calling Aegon ‘second of his name’ Hobart is saying the quiet part out loud- the realm all expects and wants for Aegon to be heir, for Rhaenyra to be set aside. Alicent is the queen- but she doesn’t care enough to correct her uncle, either because she does already think her son should be heir or because she doesn’t think it’s a woman’s place to correct a man.

Later in this same episode, she gives an incredibly half-hearted defense of Rhaenyra when Otto begins to speak literal treason- but she does bend to his will yet again, and goes to Viserys with the intent of pushing Aegon’s claim. She is aware in *episode 3* that her father is conspiring against Rhaenyra’s ascension, and she never says a word of it to Viserys or Rhaenyra, because she is Otto’s creature first, and because she agrees- Rhaenyra is a woman, and thus cannot and should not rule.

Episode 4 and 5 really bring Alicent’s hypocrisy and self-centeredness to a head and set the stage for the cruel abuser that she becomes. She is the story of a victim-turned abuser, in the end.

It starts out more positively, with Alicent and Rhaenyra attempting to rekindle their friendship, and discussing Rhaenyra’s tour. Alicent expresses an almost childish lack of understanding of the truth of Rhaenyra’s courtship tour- calling it romantic, seeing it as something dreamlike. Rhaenyra exposes the cold truth of it- after we had earlier seen that none of the options she’s offered (that we see) are actually suitable. She uses courtly manners and speak to have Lord Dondarrion essentially take himself out of the running, by getting him to speak of his age and simply agreeing with him- and is then presented with a literal child. She is fully aware that every man ‘courting’ her doesn’t love her, doesn’t want HER. They want her valyrian blood. They want their children to be dragonriders. They want proximity to the throne and power. Rhaenyra has to choose a consort; and the consequences if she chooses wrong are disastrous. She could choose a man who turns her into what Viserys did to Alicent and Aemma, she could choose a man who utilizes Westerosi patriarchal views and values and turns her into a puppet queen so that he has the actual power, or she could choose a man who is, ultimately, weak- and thus would not be able to support her claim, would not be able to support or defend her when she ascends. She expresses these frustrations- but when she sees one of her comments hurts Alicent, she immediately holds her hand and squeezes in an attempt at comfort and apology.

Alicent expresses that she has found that she has few friends, lately; and this comment is.. Interesting, in what it says of Alicent. That even at the height of female power in the realm, she cannot inspire loyalty or affection in those around her, that the only prospect she has for a friend is her childhood companion. Rhaenyra expresses a hope to grow closer again as well; but well.

Immediately we shift to the scene in the Godswood where Alicent confronts Rhaenyra with her father’s accusations. She comes into the confrontation immediately condescending and judgemental, looking down on Rhaenyra’s rebellious and adventurous nature, as well as her ‘queer Targaryen customs’, and the ‘crimes’ of which she is accused. Because remember; at this point, Alicent has bought entirely into the way the realm and the Faith views women; women who follow the rules, subservient and obedient, never reaching for more, sacrificing and doing their duty, are good, should be rewarded. Anything else is morally deficient, wrong, lesser. Given this and how she approaches the conversation; it is entirely understandable that Rhaenyra doesn’t trust Alicent, and relies on misdirection and her mother’s memory as well as their former closeness to protect herself, because through this entire conversation, it is obvious that if she knew the truth, Alicent *would not protect Rhaenyra.*

Now remember, Alicent speaks with Viserys in ‘defense’ of Rhaenyra- and she knows FULLY well that Viserys doesn’t believe that nothing happened, that Rhaenyra is restless, chaotic, and willful, and that she would have done as she pleases. (Made worse by Viserys bemoaning that Rhaenyra is ‘just a girl’ when 5 years ago he married Alicent and has had 2 children by her at this point and will have 2 more- plus he has been pushing and pressuring for Rhaenyra to marry for at least 3 of those years.)

Later, when Otto is dismissed, Alicent states what we all know to be true; he got himself into this position, because he kept pushing for Aegon to be made heir, to the point of committing treason and spying on the princess, salivating for a moment where she misbehaves that he can use against her. Here we see Alicent begin to believe the seeds Otto has been planting; that Rhaenyra would kill her siblings to secure her ascension. (Remember, the whole reason of the juxtaposition between the boar and the white stag in episode.3 is to directly contradict this. Rhaenyra attacks and kills the boar only because it harmed her and her knight. Killing the white stag would have helped her- it would have made the lords of Westeros see her as chosen, especially since she caught and killed it the day AFTER Aegon’s name day, and it revealed itself to HER [symbolizing that yes, Rhaenyra is the rightful heir and the RIGHT heir]. Killing it would have given her legitimacy beyond legitimacy and silenced MANY of the tongues that are conspiring against her. However she shows it mercy- despite the fact that its’ death would have served her) Despite having once ‘loved’ Rhaenyra, and ‘known’ her, somehow these lies make sense to Alicent and she believes them. (Furthermore, she somehow is shocked in ep.9 that the reverse is true- that to secure Aegon’s ascension, the easiest and most acceptable route to all the men around her who wield the true power, is to kill Rhaenyra and all of her children).

When later Larys mentions the delivery of a tea to Rhaenyra’s chambers on orders of the king (despite, again, her KNOWING that Viserys doesn’t believe nothing happened) she decides to look further into the matter; even though clearly Viserys wishes it dead and buried, left behind in the dust of her father’s departure of the capitol.

In ep.5, when Alicent discovers that Criston Cole slept with Rhaenyra, it all comes to a head. Despite the fact that Rhaenyra didn’t ‘lie’ (she did not sleep with Daemon), in this moment, Rhaenyra has solidified herself in Alicent’s mind as morally deficient, as less, and it infuriates her. The fact that Rhaenyra has taken charge of ehr body and autonomy in a way that Alicent would never have dared infuriates her; because a part of her had always accepted and even wished for what she assumed would be the order of things. That Rhaenyra would ‘sacrifice and do her duty’ and lay down to suffer the whims and wills of the men around them at Alicent’s side. That they would be united in that suffering. That they would be defanged and declawed the way the Faith extolls women must be, to ‘gently guide’ the men in power alongside them. (Ironic considering how later Alicent utterly fails in ‘guiding’ every man in power around her.)

Alicent has followed every rule and every tradition, does her duty no matter the discomfort, and the fact that Rhaenyra is daring to grasp for more, for power of her own, for happiness and autonomy, and isn’t being punished for it infuriates her. Infuriates her to the point that only Rhaenyra’s trasngression matters. To her, it doesn’t matter that Criston Cole broke his vows and slept with the princess because he valued desire over duty (as explicitly stated by Fabien and by ep.4’s directors)- he is a man. Only Rhaenyra must be punished. It doesn’t matter to her that Rhaenyra has bowed to her father’s will and that the choice of who she will be marry has been taken away from her so that he can use her to fix the political wounds he has caused; from this point forward, nothing Rhaenyra ever does will be enough for Alicent. Supplying heirs to the throne and Driftmark? Not enough- especially since Rhaenyra doesn’t assault her gay husband to do so. Acting as heir and putting forth wise, responsible suggestions in politics and problem-solving in the small council? Absolutely not, especially since in Alicent’s mind Rhaenyra has no business ruling over the men in the Small Council. Ruling from the heir’s seat of Dragonstone in preparation for the throne? Not enough. Offering apology when the poison that Alicent has been feeding her children about Rhaenyra and her children causes a fight between the children where her son is injured after throwing around death threats and claimed a dragon without the King’s leave (which IS established to be necessary in Jaehaerys’ reign) Not enough- she must have Lucerys’ eye as well. From this point on, *nothing Rhaenyra can or will do will ever be enough.*

And the irony is that her own hypocrisy never takes herself into account. She uses a dress to declare war at a wedding; insulting the Velaryons and her stepdaughter, and she faces no consequences for doing so, nothing for the disrespect- but only Rhaenyra ‘never’ faces consequences, right? Criston Cole murders a knight of the kingdoms and strikes the future king-consort to the Kingdoms- and Alicent protects him from every consequence, brings him into her own household as her own sworn knight.

In essence; young Alicent is a victim of the Faith, the Patriarchy and the men around her; but all of the seeds for the abuser that she becomes are there. She’s a hypocrite, blind to anything that doesn’t fit the narrative she wishes for, and to a degree, very narcissistic, and not as clever or as powerful as she thinks she is.

Mind you her being self-serving or self-absorbed isn’t some unforgivable crime; but in juxtaposition to how Rhaenyra expresses concern and care for her at multiple points, it just sits very poorly, for me.

Moving on;

Alicent, when younger is… Deeply interesting, deeply flawed, and incredibly tragic. Her younger self sets the stage for how her story ends; (SPOILERS) with her outliving all her children and grandchildren, all of them dead for her grudges and ambition, with her mad and alone.

She’s also, in some ways, very clever; she’s observant, knowing much of the court gossip, even potentially dangerous secrets in e.1 (speaking of that one Lady’s ‘swollen belly’ aka suspected pregnancy). She’s very duty-oriented, though mostly because she wants to be rewarded for how dutiful she is. She’s subservient to the men around her due to how Otto uses her, and short-sighted. I don’t think she’s a particularly kind individual, but I think she did have the POTENTIAL to be kind. She’s a little boy-obsessed- she was confirmed to have had a crush on Daemon and on Criston, plus how she viewed the courtship tour as ‘romantic’, but she’s also so obsessed with Rhaenyra that it blinds her to the truth both of herself and of Rhaenyra- obsessed with an image of Rhaenyra that isn’t actually the truth. She takes solace in her Faith, it seems, more than anything else, and she struggles to connect to people around her in meaningful ways. She has moments of deep insight- such as how she told Rhaenyra that any effort in hers and Viserys’ relationship would have to come from Rhaenyra, as Viserys, a man, is useless to ‘the language of girls’. She doesn’t like risks (no interest in flying with Rhaenyra) or adrenaline, and likely pursues only more ‘feminine’ pursuits- canonically we know Rhaenyra loves to ride horses and to fly Syrax, to hawk and hunt, loves fashion- even in the book I’d say Rhaenyra is a ‘fashionable’ tomboy in a lot of ways. But we don’t really know.. ANY hobbies of Alicent’s. We don’t know her passions, we don’t know her interests outside of the Faith and the ambitions of her family.

We don’t know her relationships with her children or motherhood- though we know she’s jealous of what a good mother Rhaenyra is.

Honestly it’s a shame. S1 really needed to be 20 eps- 10 with the younger versions of Alicent and Rhaenyra, and 10 with the older. It would’ve let us KNOW the characters more and get far more invested in their fates.

Anyways this… is a novel. But I hope I answered your question alright lmao. I think Alicent as a character is very interesting- but good lord I don’t like her, and yeah I didn’t like her younger version either.

Criston Cole do your fucking job challenge, gone wrong

It always amuses me when TG acts like Alicent's life would've been better if she hadn't married Viserys, like no, if she had failed in seducing Viserys her father wouldn't have allowed her to marry someone of her choosing, he probably would've married her to the best buyer and given her status it wouldn't have been someone very important and as we were able to see, Otto doesn't care about the age of the suitor

And no, don't say "But but but house Hightower was important bla bla bla" because though that's true, her father is the second son, so unless her uncle died with no heirs, her marriage prospects weren't very good, the only thing that would've saved her a little would be the fact that she was friends with the heir, and someone would've married her in the hopes of getting close to Rhaenyra and striking an alliance, but that's me trying to find something positive about a marriage with Alicent (in the political sense). Like, there's a reason why Otto didn't publicly present Alicent as an option, because he knew he would be laughed at, who would think that the king was going to choose the worst out of his 2 options?

Viserys married her because he thought she was interested in him (in s1 ep 2 she tells him she had been enjoying his company), or at the very least that they got along, she visited him in her best clothes looking better than she ever had (cause let's be honest here, she looked great), which showed more skin than normal, she ate with him, gave him gifts, etc. Like that's shit you do in Westeros if you are interested in someone. He also married her not because he was looking for a male heir, but because he needed that little reassurance that if something happened to Rhaenyra before she had children there would be someone who could take the throne, like there's a reason why back then people had many children, not because they were the product of love but because they had titles to lend and they needed to ensure that they would pass to someone in their lineage, after all, Corlys said it himself "History does not remember BLOOD, It remembers NAMES"

Viserys isn't some sort of pervert for marrying someone younger than him, that was normal in Westeros, women were considered old and barren as soon as they turned 24 (exaggeration), do you really think lords married young girls to prey on their beauty and youth? No! They married 15-year-olds because they were fertile and because of the advantages the marriage would bring to them, a marriage was never simply because "they are beautiful"

People need to stop putting so much blame on Viserys, does he deserve it? probably, but greenies often forget that Otto was the one who pimped out his daughter, and put all the blame on Viserys as if he had requested the guards to bring Alicent to his chambers as if he had made the first move.

"oh but he told her not to tell Rhaenyra" Wrong, he ASKED If she had told Rhaenyra, why would he ask her not to tell Rhaenyra, what, 6 months after they started seeing each other?

One last thing, Alicent did have a choice, she could've told Viserys "My dad sent me to comfort you" and then acted like she misunderstood what Otto meant by it and if she didn't do that and went with her fathers plan she could've told Rhaenyra, that way she could've at least saved her relationship with her. After all, if Alicent had a right to get mad at Rhaenyra for not telling her she had gotten stuffed by Criston, Rhaenyra surely has a right to get mad that her best friend had been seeing HER dad behind her back for MONTHS

One thing I find really ironic is the amount of people in the fandom who pride themselves on being "morally superior" for judging the characters actions with a modern mindset but then... Hate on the Velaryon kids for being bastards as if being born out of wedlock is just as bad as killing or raping people

And I'm yet to see someone who criticizes Jacaerys or Lucerys without including "is a bastard" in some way

as someone who was adopted i HATEEE the conversation surrounding the velaryon kids because i never felt like I really fit in (through no fault of my adoptive family, I just had issues after being shuttled around the foster system), I always felt like I wasn't as good as my mums "real" (biological) family, I never felt like I was truly her daughter, I was genuinely surprised to see i was given an equal share in her will as my sisters, the idea these kids aren't really laenors and not really rhaenys and corlys' family and have no right to family echoes so much of how I felt. and it's not even my own feelings anymore. People have been saying it for 2 years. I cant enjoy this fandom without seeing people questioning whether or not they should be considered part of the targ family.

and yeah I know its fiction but this series isn't made as an escape, its a commentary. which is why so much is based off current politics and historical conflicts. its made to reflect the real world. and all I see is my own feelings of inadequacy reflected.

(on anon because I don't want to be attacked by rabid TG fans)

It took me a while to organize my thoughts to answer and I still don't think this is a good enough answer

But I think this all comes from that believe that an adopted child can't be as loved as a biological one

That's why they think that Daemon hates the Velaryon boys or that Laenor's side of the family has no right to mourn Lucerys

Add a sprinkle of resentment to that mix because TG (who are the picture of a nuclear family) are constantly betraying each other, and TB (who are messy as fuck ngl) are a united front

And you have bastardphobia at its finest

The Velaryon boys are all amazing and very loved, so those who hate them can only use their parentage as justification for their hatred towards them, using bastard as an insult

They forget that this shit affects real people, that their "uh they are not a real family because they are not related 😵‍💫" affects real people who "unluckily" don't have a nuclear family with a biological mom and a biological dad