Shuro - Tumblr Posts

i feel like not enough ppl are factoring in the cultural clash between laios and shuro and the many micro agressions shuro faced while being in their group. literally the name 'shuro' in itself is one

his name is toshiro 😭 lets also not forget that he has his own communication issues, in the opposite way that laios does- thats literally a factor in their argument, that his envy for laios's ability to express himself sincerely manifested as part of his distaste for him.

ig all this to say like, was their fight heart wrenching, especially when reading laios as autistic? absolutely. anybody whos ever been in laios's position knows how much it hurts to realize someone you thought was your friend doesnt actually like having you around, especially when they didnt tell you and you had no way of knowing due to not understanding their cues. but im begging yall to step back and see the nuance of this situation cause im gonna be real a lot of you are kinda just brushing over it acting like everything is toshiros fault and that hes a terrible person when in reality hes an average guy who really, really clashed with laios and it led to a very long misunderstanding due to their supremely opposite methods of communication. even laios and toshiro, after letting everything out in their fight, were able to come to an understanding and start a foundation for an actual friendship built on better communication

ok yknow what Edit: i shouldve made it even more explicit at the end of this post, i hadnt thought i would need to since i started the post with this, but i think a few too many people are missing my point so i just wanna clarify. i shouldnt have said 'really clashed' and left it at that because yeah they did, but it wasnt just their opposite methods of communication, it is also very much that toshiro was experiencing microaggressions via laios. it may have been unintentional on laios's part, but it still happened and wore him down, made it harder for him to communicate on top of both the more subtle social cues that he was raised with and his own communication difficulties. i also want to say that the fandom reaction to toshiro and the complete ignorance of this point is also racist tbh or at the very least ignorant. i understand that the anime did not cover this panel, and neither did the manga, as this was an omake, but im gonna be real with you guys. there are enough context clues within the story to clue you into this. if you didnt pick up on it thats ok, but i think this is a good lesson in picking up subtext in the stories that youre watching and/or reading. kui shouldnt have to explicitly say 'by the way laios was racist to toshiro' for this point to be understood, and at the very least, when the author portrays a character in a sympathetic light (as kui clearly does) it should make you question Why they are doing so and what makes them sympathetic, rather than youre immediate and only reaction to be 'well i hated what this guy did/said so i hate them and they suck'. idk exactly how to finish this, just. idk. question your biases and gut reactions to things you see in media and stories, and think about whether or not theres subtext that youre missing.

toshiro/shuro is honestly an ok guy from an objective point of view, but man does he have SO MANY things working against him from an audience POV its honestly comedic.

he has little spine and even littler communication skills making him every neurodivergents nightmare, he's straight for falin and tries to propose which every other party member but Laios (who doesnt notice) absolutely hates, he's in a pretty large cast where most of the others are just way more memorable and active in the story then he is, and also his family seems to just. own people??? izutsumi and tade are both described as having been "purchased" to train as retainers and its a bit glossed over or not examined super deeply but man your family is fucked. literally dealt every bad card smh.

I think the fact that Shuro (Toshiro) fought Laios is proof he cares about him

I mean, if you really dislike someone, you leave them alone right? Ignore them, walk away

But he gets slapped and he punches back!

And then the boys start pulling each others hair and yelling their feelings because the truth is, while Laios is annoying, he's also Shuro's friend! It sometimes IS nice to have someone ask a million questions about your home. He envies Laios, he enjoys his company, I think the problem is over exposure and inability to communicate.

But you don't grapple with someone, then listen to their advice and then offer to help them if you don't care

They ARE friends

Friends fight

My stance on Shuro discourse

The fistfight between Shuro and Laios is so fucking cathartic to me. Laios was not picking up on social cues for so long and when that’s revealed he doesn’t do what so many of us have to and shrink away and apologize he gets MAD.

He punches Shuro in the face and says you should have been more fucking clear, and I genuinely find that so empowering.

"it feels like we were pretty close,... so i figured toshiro and i would end up the same way as those two."

oh girl if only you knew. how bad it really is.

context below the cut 👇

this comic was inspired by hien's adventurer bible comic, where she wonders why her and toshiro didnt end up together despite being close as kids:

that panel in particular where shes kinda bullying him in her classic Hien way but he takes it as actual mean-ness... i like to think Hien's humour is kinda joke bullying her friends, and in some friend groups that's just the vibe (like her and benchidori "bullying" each other so bluntly, but its all jokes)! but other friend groups dont do that! shiro doesn't relate to that kind of humour. his feelings were actually hurt even if she may have had 100 layers of irony and no real ill intentions behind it. she probably didnt understand what it would do to a young boy to belittle him for crying... she fumbled a soft man w her sharp personality

also:

and i hate when white fans of the series can understand the idea of fantasy racism but not actual racism that takes place in the series. they get so mad when someone discusses the idea of laios having like an ignorant or racist mindset. and I think it is very weird how some bring up the fact that he is autistic to “excuse” his behavior towards toshiro and borderline forgets about it. as someone who is black and neurodivergent is frustrating when white people neurodivergent overtake these conversations and forget that autistic people of color can exist and how they would relate to the show and what is discussed.

One thing I’ll say about the hate for Kabru and Toshiro is how I feel hurt by it not as a poc but as someone who has the same traits as them. I hate that people are able to understand that Laios can’t read the room but have a hard time understanding why Toshiro didn’t communicate/validate only Laios feelings and not Toshiro’s. Ofc he should have and that’s a flaw of his character. But I just feel so awful seeing people not understanding that if Toshiro was able to communicate he would have. I’m the same way. I’m a pushover, I let people cross my boundaries and I struggle with communicating my feelings.

Like imagine relating to Toshiro AND Laios. I’ve had someone who didn’t like me and said something behind my back treat me as if we were friends. And I’ve struggled to be open about my feelings when people bothered me causing me to snap and seem mean/rude.

The Toshiro hate is definitely valid and completely understandable especially as an autistic person who’s dealt with what Laios is going through. But the way people speak about Toshiro just makes me feel also awful and uncomfortable

screaming into the void toshiro is SO LONELY. he’s alienated from laois’ party from the get-go, one bc he’s an easterner and two bc NO ONE GETS HIS NAME RIGHT - and ik laois is neurodivergent coded (or just straight up neurodivergent) but they way he initially approached toshiro is so odd??

toshiro was legitimately just sitting at a bar, then laois walks over bc “his appearance is strange” (as in his eastern features) and talks for him for several hours-

HOW DID LAOIS FIND TOSHIRO’S HOUSE???

and he’s literally DRAGGED into the dungoeon by laois (which might have been for comedic effect but cmon)

he’s also not close to anyone in his family (as seen in the adventure’s bible and author doodles), he’s estranged from his brothers, he feels constantly in the shadow of his father, and he’s (either by choice or circumstance) distanced himself from his retainers, including maizuru (his stand-in mother), and hien (a once close childhood friend)

all of his relationships on the island are temporary anyway, seeing that in the end he’s going to return home and probably never see them again…

poor guy man

I find it interesting when people bring up shuro's crush on falin in relation to her autism coding. I don't think it's a wrong to view his feelings as a sort of "not like other girls" situation because it is a "she's not like other girls" moment. But I think we lose some nuance when we only view it through a female autistic lense. Viewing it from his foreigner pov also makes his relationship with her especially interesting.

The main issue with shuro in the story revolves around the fact that he is a foreigner and we really see this in the way he interacts with the Touden party. The group doesn't out right hate him but they aren't that close with him. Marcile kind of treats shuro like a close acquaintance and Namari/chilchuck view their jobs as jobs and treat shuro like a work friend. These aren't bad relationships to have but I can't imagine he really feels at home in the Touden party. Laios was the one that brought shuro into the party so he's the one that treats him like a close friend, but laios pushes his boundaries and laios has problems with understanding subtle communication so he doesn't see what he's doing.

But Falin is not her brother, she isn't really shown/write to have issues with subtle communication cues like laios. (If she is then she's written to be a little better than her brother) This would make it easier and probably more comfortable for shuro to talk to her rather than laios. And since laios and Falin are pretty much always together, shuro would talk to falin just as much as he would with laios. (Maybe a little bit less)

Even if he didn't gain romantic feelings for falin, she would still be the one he felt closest to.

But he does.

While this moment with falin and the caterpillar is a "she's not like other girls" moment, it also shows they both have similar interests. An interest he probably couldn't explore much being a prince and having to be proper.

Again, he definitely is an example of the annoyance of autistic men vs the love of autistic women, but I think exploring his culture difference compared to the Touden siblings is interesting.

Shuro being known as "Shuro" when his name is "Toshiro" is a funny haha "white boy misheard his name and told everybody" joke, but it is also a character study of everything going wrong with Toshiro himself. Sure, Laios misheard his name and told everybody, but Laios is a kind person who cares about his impact on his friends. If Toshiro had EVER ONCE corrected him, Laios would have changed his behavior, and told everyone he'd fucked up, and laughed at himself for making the mistake. Shuro being so paralyzed by social etiquette that he can't even correct Laios about HIS OWN NAME (paralysis that comes from his culture, upbringing, and his own autism, as Laios himself has not given him any reason to feel this way) is foreshadowing and commentary on their entire dynamic and conflict.

The fact that, even after resolving the rest of their issues, Shuro STILL doesn't correct him or anyone else on the island, holds implications that perhaps he's grown to appreciate having this other identity that's separate from his upbringing. Yet another trans allegory of slow transitioning of identity being linked to a different name (used first by your friends).

Or maybe he just still hasn't gotten up the courage to broach that particular embarrassing topic.

Listen, I totally agree that it’s super sad that it turned out Shuro had been annoyed by Laios the whole time he’d considered them to be friends. I get it! I’ve been in his shoes, I was the annoying friend.

But I think it’s also important to not ignore the feelings of Shuro, the one who was being annoyed, at the same time. It’s possible to acknowledge how both people felt without villainizing one of them.

I feel like when it comes to outsiders hearing about a fight two people had, they’ll do this thing where they take the side of whoever they feel most bad for or relate to the most and gang up on/ignore the reasons the other person has and it kind of sucks!

And the point Shuro makes about it being worse that Laios meant no harm is probably because it meant there was no reason for him to tell him to fuck off without looking like an asshole!!

There’s no reason to blame Shuro’s inability to communicate that he wanted space if you’re not going to do the same for Laios’s social blunders.

Shuro’s status of nobility has been brought up a few times when discussing his fight with Laios. I’m sure there’s credibility to the argument but the way it’s been used makes me go, “huh??”

I’ve seen his upbringing used in a negative context, usually to flatten his reasons for fighting with Laios. “oh he’s used to people listening to him so he’s never met anyone who doesn’t do exactly what he says” or “he’s never been exposed to anyone new or any new perspectives and that’s why he hated Laios”. I don’t think these opinions are salient in fan spaces but I saw it enough times I wanted to talk about it.

I feel like we just, forgot that Toshiro is a foreigner? The only poc in the party? And never interacted with gnomes, dwarves, and halffoots since they don’t live in the east? (well, the last point depends on how much you’ve seen from the Adventurer’s Bible)

Compared to everyone else, he probably had the MOST exposure to new people and experiences. And yet he was able to, best he can, quickly assimilate and harmonize with everyone in his new party. Regardless of what he thought about them, it seemed everyone else thought he was amicable. As a poc (and East Asian specifically), that’s mission accomplished.

With all that effort into making himself culturally digestible, it’s no wonder he resented/envied Laios. He put in all this effort to learn their status quo, to not offend the new people he’s meeting, only for Laios to not give him the same consideration. Both of them were socially inept in some way, but only one of them felt the need to do something about it. It’s important to note that their fight was a turning point for Laios too - he realize he had to be more aware and present for his team.

So Toshiro didn’t want to say no outright because it might set back the bonds he’s trying to form. Confrontation is hard, confrontation in a new country is harder. He settles for “close enough” because hey, it’s not that big of a deal. Their opinion of me is way more important than obtaining respect for myself. I’m the foreigner. This has the consequence of making him a pushover, but I digress. He seems to identify himself more as a foreigner than nobility.

And that had to do with separating his identity! The identify he has at his house was kept VERY separate from the one he has with Laios and co. He doesn’t want Laios’ party to know that he is nobility. He doesn’t even care that they call him by “first name”, albeit butchered. He never mentioned the retainers to them (since Chilchuck had to ask who they were).

The retainers are people he’d rather keep at a distance due to their connection with his dad. This might be why he joined Laios’ party solo given the opportunity. But as we see in the image below, they followed him into the dungeon ANYWAYS. You can’t convince me he wanted them to do that. They watch from a distance, disregarding Toshiro’s independence. They don’t always listen to him, they do what they think is best for him, which means they actually follow MAIZURU. To her, his status as their young master is very important, and therefore he needs to be waited on hand and foot. It’s not that he’s used to people doing stuff for him, it’s moreso Maizuru does it regardless.

What drives both identities is an inability to assert himself. He don’t think highly of himself (living under his father’s shadow) and it shows in how people treat him. With Laios and others, he had the opportunity to shape a new identity, but because Laios was the one that introduced him, he and everyone else just accepted the misconceptions. I’m sure Toshiro noted his surprisingly strong influence on his team, something he hasn’t achieved.

With his retainers and Maizuru specifically, she doesn’t put faith in his decisions. She tsked at the fact they went to save Falin, but obeyed anyways because he’s never asserted himself before. (Reminder that assertion is him on his knees requesting their help - the hierarchy of his upbringing does not feel ingrained in him. Giving me overly respectful and considerate vibes, the silly guy)

So he CAN do it! He CAN shape how people see him if he is able to open up a bit more. Rather than his nobility, it’s moreso that he’s never trusted anyone to open up to in the first place. He doesn’t fit in back home. He’s distant from Maizuru, he’s distant from Hien. He’s distant from his brothers and parents. He basically never had friends until Laios. This is his first friend too!!!

He finally opened up to him, and that’s going to pave the way for his character development in the future. He now has someone he can trust, someone to put his faith in, and someone to teach him how to communicate better. By airing his resentment, now all that’s left is that envy/admiration. He’s going to learn from that.

Edit: just because I like keeping things together, here’s more discussion about this post :P

The real issue behind laios and shuro's relationship is that laios can't handle some one without a backbone.

Take chilchuck for example. Chilchuck has some very serious work place boundaries: Don't intervene with his work, don't talk about his family while on the job, don't treat him like a child, etc.. All of these are perfectly fine boundaries to have but they're boundaries everyone breaks. Marcile pry's into his family life, Senshi gets in the way of his work, Izutsumi basically sleeps on top of him.

Laios is the only one that respects that Chilchuck is just doing his job and he wants to do it a specific way; when laios does something stupid or ignorant chilchuck yells at him for doing so. Laios doesn't misunderstand what Chilchuck's saying because he's being clear and up front with his issues.

But shuro doesn't do that because he has no backbone, he's a coward. He's not even able to correct laios when he gets his name wrong.

He does nothing to stop the growing misunderstanding between the two that he could easily fix if he gained some courage. We only see him tell laios his problems when he at his worst, starving with barely any sleep. He's only brave when he's exhausted. And by then it's already too late. Laios yells at shuro not for not understanding him, but for not telling him the misunderstanding sooner. Because he would have fixed it, he would happily respect shuro's boundaries but he doesn't even know them. And they're more important matters now, he has to save his sister.

If I had a nickel for every time laios got punched over his misunderstanding of someone's feelings for him, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's funny how it happened twice.

I kinda do believe that Toshiro IS afraid of being head of his household.

He's barely made any decisions of his own his whole life. Only time he did was to save someone he cared about. He's too used to the comfort of obedience, I think he believes it absolves him of participating in the activities of a household that does things in a way he disagrees with.

What kind of things you ask? Mainly how those bound to it are treated, I think:

He's angry at Maizuru when he learns about the flying hag that chased him as a kid being her doing.

He let's Izutsumi/Asebi go. There's two translations going around of the scene where Maizuru informs him that she's missing. I've seen bilingual Japanese users on twitter say that the one where he goes "She'll find her way back if she wants to" is more appropriate, it carries the intention of him letting her go. Saying "just leave her" is probably what a native English speaker assumed to be the more straightforward intention.

When he tells Laios about how Tade was probably in a very bad situation because she saw his dad (who he doesn't respect at all) as a saviour he says "I wanna speak to her". He doesn't because, passivity man, but, I get the feeling he wanted to tell her "he's still not a good person, Tade". I get the feeling he'd allow her to leave after Izutsumi if they were ever in a situation where he can actually be the decision maker.

He apologises to his party for dragging them down to confront the Faligon. Remember how that was all of those guyses first death in a dungeon? I've said this but. Man saw them get wipped. Childhood friend AND mom figure died in front of his eyes, and I know that's normal in a dungeon, but jeez. His mom-adjacent figure. His "MOM". idk I'd be messed up, unrelated but I think Laios is definitely suppressing how much it affected him to see Falin be eaten, be turned, be stabbed, etc etc. He's definitely an "I'll focus on problem solving to avoid looking at my emotions" type of guy.

During the fight he asks Laios "what about me is strong?". If you'll remember, Laios said that in the original party, Toshiro was in charge of finding an opening and dealing the killing blows. I wonder if he felt burdened, responsible for their failure then?

If he takes failure that hard when he's just following orders, I can see him feeling anxious about the prospect of failure when he's the one issuing them. It's probably why he comes across as so half-hearted with the whole "earn the right to be the next Head of the Clan" thing.

Not to mention, I remember seeing someone on X say, "the big gap between Toshiro and his baby brothers (13 years) is probably because Toshitsugu originally just wanted one (1) heir out of his arranged marriage to Toshiro's mom, since he actually loved Maizuru. But then he decided that Toshiro wasn't made of whatever was necessary to be a leader of their shady ass clan, so he had another two kids as backup".

If Toshiro is aware of that, fuck man, what kind of confidence is he going to have 😵

But, it's also a shame, right? Because he's explicitly empathetic. I think that's the meaning of him being shown playing with bugs as a kid, being coded as kind of softhearted. He empathises with things/beings he "shouldn't". But he's also obedient, he's always masking, so he has a hard time showing it explicitly. Honestly, the fact that he has that discussion about Tade with Laios is impressive imo, he trusts him and feels more comfortable with him than he lets on. He should NOT say the same thing to Maizuru or Hien, even though he respects them and cares for them.

If he had a bit of a spine, he'd be good for the people in the household. Probably bizarre in a way that even his dad can't predict, and maybe wouldn't like (he likes weirdos but only when it means chaos and fun it seems?). Maybe there'd be infighting. He just doesn't agree with the way his dad does too many things.

On the other hand, I also kinda think he should just take Tade and fuck off back to Melini lol. Become a bodyguard for Laios, help a bit with politics. What's for him in Wa anyway? An Estranged family and friends he doesn't fit with anymore. I think he'd be more likely to feel homesick for his friends in Melini than the Nakamoto household.

In any case I hope that Falin encouraging him to be more of an active participant of his own life has an everlasting effect on him. Even if he's afraid of shouldering that responsibility.

The fandom treating shuro like a female character getting in the way of their gay ship (marcille x fallin) would be funny if it wasn't so fucking annoying.