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Ok this is so incredibly ignorant it deserves its own post. @darkelf19

1) Loki had no reason to believe the Einherjar stationed in the Vault could not do their literal job and dispatch the handful of jötnar that snuck inside during the coronation. A poor decision, certainly, but not one born of malice or indifference.

2) The Warriors 3, Sif and Heimdall all committed treason against him. He was perfectly justified in defending his entirely legitimate claim to the throne. (Apparently Thor's friends don't understand how the line of succession works).

3) If you think he felt nothing while sending the Destroyer after and later directly fighting Thor, you didn't watch the same movie I did. Furthermore, Loki would have had no reason to attack Thor if his friends had not (again) committed treason against him. Consider: if he had planned to send the Destroyer all along, why take the time to go down to Midgard and lie to Thor about Odin being dead? Loki was buying time to accomplish his ultimate goal (to "save" his father who at this point he was still desperate to prove himself to, and to destroy the monster inside himself namely by destroying the entire race). The actions of Thor's friends forced his hand. That doesn't negate that his own actions were immoral, but it certainly does negate the argument that he did so because he's just evil.

4) Loki has never tried to kill Odin. Ever. (Though I certainly would not blame him if he had. That abusive bag of dicks has it coming).

5) Unless you're referring to Laufey when you say "his father". In which case... what reason does Loki have to feel any sense of loyalty to the man who allegedly abandoned him as an infant? Laufey is a stranger to him and an enemy of Asgard, to which Loki is now desperate to prove his fidelity. See again: trying to kill the monster inside himself—by literally killing the 'monster' who created him in the first place.

6) He did not "join" Thanos. For fuck's sake. Did you watch these movies at all? He was tortured, coerced, brainwashed, and mentally manipulated by a goddamn infinity stone. Don't assign motives he's never had to him just because you like the idea of him as a "villain". 🙄

Outside of two very specific sets of circumstances (one being a mental breakdown that ends in a suicide attempt, the other being—again—falling into the hands of terrorist organization and surviving the only way he could), Loki has lived more than one thousand years without ever showing a tendency towards evil (mischief, yes; malevolence, no). He has bad qualities, as we all do. He struggles with feelings of envy, he can be spiteful, he can be manipulative; despite his reputation for being a master tactician, he has an unfortunate tendency to have his plans go off the rails. But he also feels things deeply (which is one of the things he despises most about himself, as he thinks it makes him weak); he is loyal to both his loved ones and to Asgard (despite neither his loved ones nor Asgard being loyal to him). He makes some very bad decisions that unfortunately have resulted in a significant loss of life. He bears [some—because again, coerced and brainwashed] responsibility for those decisions and the collateral damage thereof. That is not in question. But nothing he has ever done has been because he's evil or uncaring. If you think it is, you don't know him at all.

I think the reason I feel particularly betrayed and embittered by Marvel is because when the MCU first began, there was just so much potential. 

And I’m not just speaking from a Loki fan’s POV (though it’s mostly from that side), but the way Marvel movies handled every aspect of storytelling, all of their characters were finely written and fleshed out, even the seemingly minor side characters (Agent Coulson, anyone?). The plot was interesting and not too convoluted (*side eyes IW and Endgame*), they made room for both serious drama and witty, intelligent humor (which then died completely with Ragnarok). Everyone had someone they could root for, which brings me around to being a Loki fan. 

When Loki was introduced, and in the following years and movies after, he became an idol for anyone who has been shit on repeatedly by society just for being who they are, and who then refused to take it anymore and began to punch back. 

I mean there’s a reason why the vast majority of Loki fans belong to the LGBTQA+ community, as well as being neurodivergent in some way. And the reason that Loki’s story touched us particularly instead of any other character, was because: 

A. We got to see his fall from grace, and we recognized it as something many of us have gone through in the past. We recognize the little pushes and steps that eventually leads someone down a self-destructive and dark path. And the only reason many of us aren’t still down that path is because we have resources and support systems that, unfortunately, Loki didn’t have access too. But that isolation in and of itself was also extremely relatable, because it’s something we all experienced before we found people who helped us back into the light.  

B. Loki’s struggles and feelings of betrayal and ostricization actually brought out the darker aspects of what that can do to a person. We live in this fucked up society that expects people who are abused and bullied and marginalized to remain Good and Kind and Pure, when in reality (and I am speaking from experience) when you are constantly being victimized and targeted, often for reasons you don’t entirely understand, that causes you to lash out. It causes you to become angry, even violent (even if you’re only daydreaming about causing harm to people). People will back you into a corner and then act surprised when you bite back at them. And then once you do all of that, once you start fighting back, society suddenly decides that you are a Villain/Criminal, and that you deserve the punishment you give. But they don’t even think about punishing the people who made you that way. 

So yeah. The fact that we were actually getting to explore what causes so many villains to become villains, and why so many marginalized people identify with villains, was exciting. It was exciting for me, at least, who saw the same kind of anger I harbored towards the world in Loki. 

We were finally going to get our story told but then…. 

Then…. 

Then Infinity War happened. And Gagnarok. And Endgame…. 

And we found ourselves, once again, pushed into the shadows. 

All of the heroes that comply to what society dictates is a hero get their moment in the sun, and we are once again told that all we’ll ever be are just villains and criminals, unworthy (I fucking hate that word) of redemption or love or a chance to prove ourselves. 

Marvel was supposed to be different. Marvel was supposed to be the thing that gave every single person a chance in the spotlight. But Marvel just… let us down. 

….So fuck you, Marvel. 

Possibly Unpopular Opinion

I really hope Thor isn’t around for GOTG 3. It’s the only corner of the MCU I still have an interest in. I hated watching Thor insult and bully Quill and the others and not once thanking them for saving his life. And he had no right to try and take the leader role from Quill at the end of Endgame! If that’s the dynamic going forward, I hope they drop Thor into a wormhole somewhere. 

Yes, I like Quill. He’s flawed as hell but his flaws come from a real place of pain, and his shortcomings are actually treated as such by the narrative. 

I think there was a shift in Marvel’s attitude towards Tom between TDW and TR, and I wonder what caused it.

Did Tom do something to Kevin Feige? Did he sing under the shower and use all the hot water in a lodge they shared? Did he accidentally spill tea on his favorite suit? Did he have one drink too many and say “you’re going bald, man”? Did he run over his cat? Or did he piss off someone else? The possibilities are endless.

This deleted scene is the saddest thing in the Marvel Cinematic Universe because it confirms what Loki was saying all along.

In Loki’s wildest fantasies, he’s not sitting on the throne with Odin’s spear. 

He’s wielding Mjolnir and being cheered and accepted by Asgard like Thor, as his equal.

And that fucking hurts. 

 - Do you think the Bifrost is the only way in and out of this realm? There are passages between worlds to which even you, with all your gifts, are blind. But I have need of them no longer, now that I am king. And I say, for your act of treason, you are relieved of your duties as gatekeeper and no longer citizen of Asgard!

-  Then I need no longer obey you!

There’s something that’s been bugging me about the first Thor film for a while, which is the fact Thor’s great “revelation” is this nebulous thing that is implied to have occurred but isn’t really actually presented to the audience? Like, yes, it would be a great shock to be dropkicked off your home planet and lose your fancy magic powers, but I’m not sure where and how that leads to “I was wrong to re-ignite war against our hereditary enemies, obviously they are people too, and I must stop Loki because Genocide Is WrongTM”. 

Especially since the fate of the Jotnar is never picked up again? It’s just kind of assumed that- well, that no one on Asgard gives a shit if they did all die from delayed effects of the planet getting a hole punched into it. Despite Thor apparently  believing that preventing such warranted smashing the Bifrost?

Granted, Asgard seems to rely on the Bifrost to the exclusion of possessing spaceworthy craft, so they couldn’t render aid if they wanted to? 

But it’s weird that the last act of Thor hinges on Thor having had some great realization and it just-isn’t there?

Why did you change your mind, Thor? 

Was Darcy watching Schindler’s List for one of her classes or something? Considering what is revealed about the war with the Svartalfar, does Asgard even have a concept of genocide, or is it simply considered a “dishonorable” tactic that is nevertheless lauded in practice because “yay, we won’t have to worry about that enemy anymore”.

What made you change your mind, Thor?

Why did you break the bridge when you had gleefully murdered someone for an insult 3 days before?

Why did you change your mind?

What made you change your mind?

…and why didn’t it seem to stick?

Come to think of it, a lot of my Loki feels stem from the fact that he is a huge example of mental illness and emotional instability being poorly handled and steadily made worse as a result.

After attempted suicide, massive implied trauma and multiple breaks…

thor 2 is basically about everyone threatening loki not to betray thor and loki just not taking any of their shit for serious

The thing about Loki is he’s done apologizing for what he is, even when he does things that warrant an apology. He’s aware that his recent actions were immoral, and I believe he feels varying level of remorse for most of them, but he’s not about to seek forgiveness. He will never again subject himself to another’s judgment.

It’s a delicate balance to maintain whilst crafting a redemption arc. I go for an approach somewhat inspired by mythology. In my imagination, Loki intends to fix the messes he had a part in creating (and that continue to threaten or hinder him). By fixing those messes, he redeems himself.

It’s not an “I am sorry. How can I make this better?” approach. It’s an “I’m going to unfuck this up my way because I’m the one who knows this fuck up best,” approach.

How Ragnarok Took Everything From Loki and Its Consequences

I wanted to write this post since I watched TR but I wasn’t calm enough for it until now. Even writing so little about how TR unfairly treated Loki’s character and disrespected him and his fans in my TR reviews made me angry enough to start shouting in my head and rendered me unable to write it the way I wanted. Then IW happened and it was the cause for another wave of rage in me. So it took me a long time.

We always talk about how TR disrespected Loki and took away a lot of his canon characterizations and motives and his arc from him. I noticed we never explained it in details and it caused a lot of misunderstandings about why we hate TR and what we mean. So this is a detailed explanation of how TR took everything from Loki.

Keep reading

Jumping off the other anon's point - fantasy racism in the Thor movies is so weirdly explored? As a Muslim American I felt a lot of parallels between the Jotunheim-Asgard situation and my own life post-Iraq War/post-9/11 what with the war during my childhood and lingering distrust (and Asgard leaving Jotunheim to rot afterwards definitely struck a chord) but at the same time, the movie so clearly didn't even know it was doing that. It felt like a race metaphor for the sake of a race metaphor 1/3

(2/3) Plus, it’s handled SO CLUMSILY. The whole bit with Thor going ‘I’ll kill them all’ right in front of the King made it clear this racism was a whole systemic issue was NEVER fixed in their society! The perception of Jotuns never changed by the end of the movie! We never even get to find out what happened to Jotunheim ever, because it never gets brought up again. Instead, we find out that Grandpa Bor committed genocide too and throughout the movie it’s an entire non-issue?

(3/3) I think fantasy racism can work really well as a metaphor, IF the writer actually thought through every implication. I know as an American my perception of racism is way more heavily based on skin tone than most but the whole thing with Loki being able to look Asgardian read as ‘white passing’ to me and the implication of a white passing person trying to prove they’re not like the rest of their race? That’s so much to unpack, and the writers just threw out the whole suitcase.

Mmm, yeah, I totally feel you on all of this, Anon.

It’s interesting because like… So Ragnarok obviously has this anti-colonialist leaning, which is all about acknowledging the real horror of past events, and generally just accepting that there’s no Asgardian superiority. I don’t really think it was hard-hitting enough, and I appreciated there was something, but like…

It just felt weird to me for him to be like “colonialism is bad! what Odin did is wrong!” but also never acknowledge what happened to Loki. I appreciate that Taika Waititi isn’t much of a Loki fan (and certainly dislikes Loki’s fans), but it just seemed strange to take an anti-colonialist lilt without using this perfect example right in front of you.

What Odin and Frigga did to Loki (and I want to stress that it was Odin and Frigga, and that we shouldn’t excuse Frigga for her part in this) is what has happened to hundreds of thousands of native & indigenous children across the world. A child would be stolen from their real parents, forcibly “adopted”, bled of their culture, and would be systematically fed the evil ideology that the culture they came from is bad and wrong and uncivilized.

This has happened in Australia; this has happened in Canada - Hell, the last fucking “residential school” for First Nations kids in Canada only closed in ‘96! ‘96! 22 years ago, they were still fucking doing this. You know what that is? Literally, that is an act of genocide.

And like…

I think it’s just so fucked up that this keeps being boiled down to “he was adopted,” like, no… If they’d taken in this Jotunn kid, and he’d grown up knowing he was Jotunn but that he was still loved - that would be adopted. If they’d waited until he was like, an adolescent (say, the equivalent of 10/11) and told him he was a Jotunn but that he was still loved - that would be adopted.

But what Frigga and Odin did to him, raising him not only to not know what he was, but to despise where he came from…

That’s unspeakably and revoltingly cruel. There is literally no possible justification for it. 

People can tell me time and time again “but they didn’t want to shock him by telling him what he was” - he wouldn’t have been shocked, he wouldn’t have been as upset, if Asgard did not explicitly and regularly call for the genocide of the people he is revealed to belong to. If he had not been raised believing that these people - his people - are monsters, creatures, savages. 

“Loki overreacted,” like, no, man, he didn’t overreact, he fucking broke like shattered glass. “He didn’t have to try to kill an entire planet, though,” like bitch, why not? Thor did the same fucking thing like, a week ago. 

I don’t think what he did was right or justifiable, and certainly, it was not a rational decision made by a rational guy, but… Guys, Thor did the exact same thing. Can you imagine having this wild, psychotic break, sobbing your eyes out and knowing that not only did your family never love you as much as your brother, as they claimed, but that they were right not to, and desperately trying to prove to yourself that it can’t be true by murdering the people you supposedly come from–

And then your brother coming at you with this hypocrisy? Actual proof, shoved right in his face, that Thor can do x, but if Loki does x, he is the actual, most evil monster in the world?

The only person that even TRIES to work on the perception of the Jotnar is Loki himself, and that’s in exploring his feelings in this play he wrote as Odin, with nine or ten layers of distance between his identities at the time.

It’s just so fucked up. It’s so wrong. 

And I just don’t understand how they could shove all these facets into Thor (2011), and never unpack them in literally 5 fucking movies. You had so many opportunities, and you just… Ignored ‘em all. 

Heimdall is a SAINT.

Imagine being Heimdall and having a spirit so generous that you could sincerely say “welcome home” to the individual who once turned you into an icicle and is now showing up 15 minutes late without Starbucks to the apocalypse that he sort of started.

Okay, the throne legitimately fell to Loki in Thor 1, but the deleted scene also shows that as soon as the staff was in his hand, Loki began plotting a way to make it a more permanent position. But as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely? Which is sad because he looked like a wounded puppy at the thought of taking the staff without permission, like "Wait, you mean me?" T_T Definitely a scene that shows the complexity of a baby Loki trapped by Odin's A+ parenting.

Obligatory puppy dog Loki: 

I don’t know that Loki immediately began plotting to make it a more permanent position out of corruption, though. I think that he began plotting to do as much as he could while he had the position to clean up Thor’s mess with Jotunheim and make himself the hero who killed Laufey, slaughtered the Frost Giants (which Thor wanted to do) and saved Asgard. In my opinion, Loki’s intentions were never evil or corrupt; he acted out of a desperate need to prove his worth - to prove himself equal to Thor, or maybe even better than Thor. 

It really makes me wonder how things might have turned out had Sif and the W3 not intervened - because, really, all Loki was trying to do was keep Thor away from Asgard until he had time to carry out his plan and come out the other side, victorious. I think eventually, he probably would have let Thor come back. But once the W4 went against Loki’s orders to bring Thor back, that’s when Loki got desperate and things fell apart. 

I don’t think Loki ever thought he’d have the kingship permanently. If nothing else, Odin was going to wake up eventually, at which point he’d be king again. Loki just saw an opportunity to prove himself, while taking Thor down a few pegs, and pounced. Idk, it’s all very interesting because there’s just so much complexity going on between the characters in this movie and a million different ways things could have all turned out. 

Meta: Loki’s Deleted “Coronation” Scene

Time to deconstruct this baby. 

First of all, let’s start with CONTEXT. Context part one: Loki has just been banished to his jail cell for eternity. Odin has just condemned him to a lifetime sentence without visitation rights by friends or family.  He has disowned him and claimed not only that his “birthright was to die”–which Odin during Loki’s childhood repeatedly lied about by omission, and by outright statements such as “both of you were born to rule”–but also that he should be grateful to Odin for taking pity on Loki, a helpless bastard infant (allegedly) outcast by his royal Jotun family, and letting him live.   Context part two: Loki protects himself by using lies and illusions.  He dons masks and personae, and utilizes both physical shape-shifting and mirages of extreme elaborateness, as his arsenal.  Not only as his blade, but as his SHIELD.  So when Loki uses illusions, we know he feels either physically, mentally, or emotionally threatened.

What we see before us is Loki imagining up, and probably casting ornate illusions (to entertain himself in boredom and sorrow, because trust me, mercurial emotions and extreme intellect are a miserable combo in a prison cell) of, the coronation that never was. What do we remember that Loki’s said about inheriting the throne of Asgard? “I never wanted the throne [to Thor]: I only ever wanted to be your equal” (Thor 2011).  However as equality with Thor, in Odin’s eyes, is contingent upon worthiness to inherit the throne, the throne becomes conflated with that equality, and Loki seeks it for the sole, very basic and dare I say very human desire to be accepted unconditionally by his family and culture.   What do we also know? That Frigga once granted Loki the throne during the Odinsleep and Thor’s banishment, LEGITIMATELY, only to be taken away when Thor somewhat miraculously grew a conscience and a better perspective of how to treat his subjects in the Nine with respect.  

What does this deleted scene, therefore, tell us? It tells us that Loki is  –feeling threatened –protecting and entertaining himself –imagining what he longs for and believes he deserves. 

So let’s interpret this “daydream,” and in doing so interpret where Loki’s elusive misconceptions and so-called “delusions” about his family dynamics, and the injustices done him, lie.   Because let’s not forget: EVERY SECOND OF THIS DELETED SCENE IS SPECIFICALLY FROM LOKI’S POV. That makes it a splendid look inside his typically obfuscated psyche. 

**********************

First let’s talk DIMENSIONS: 

This view of the Throne Room is somewhat larger and certainly more densely packed than the view that we see during Thor’s coronation (which, food for thought, Loki surely remembers DISRUPTING by INTRODUCING FROST GIANTS INTO THE VAULT WHICH LED ULTIMATELY TO THOR RUSHING HEADLONG INTO JOTUNHEIM AND LOKI LEARNING HIS TRUE HERITAGE, WHICH WAS THE BEGINNING OF LOKI’S UNDOING–lots and lots of associations with the SHATTERING OF TRUST, SELF-THWARTING, AND THE UNVEILING OF TRAGIC TRUTHS for Loki EMBEDDED IN THE **VERY PHYSICAL AND PHENOMENOLOGICAL SPACE OF THE THRONE ROOM***. Never forget that!).  

Also, note: cinematography is NEVER AN ACCIDENT: what we see, and the sequence of visuals we are presented in tandem with acting and a score, are conscious artistic decisions that feed the narrative for us on an unconscious level. So some filmographer decided that Loki’s perception of a coronation should be DISTANT, REVERENT, IMMENSE, DENSELY PACKED WITH TINY PEOPLE.  Thor’s coronation, on the other hand, is much more focused on a few people closest to the elder and more gregarious sibling.  His triumph is louder and more in your face. Loki’s has almost the religious fervor of a saint’s canonization, SUGGESTING A PATH LONG TRODDEN AND A VICTORY HARD EARNED (rather than a privilege taken for granted). 

Next, let’s talk about WHO IS PRESENT:

People whom Loki claims to “loathe,” who were “only Thor’s friends.” Uh huh.  While it was clear that Thor’s friends The Warrior Three and Lady Sif always tolerated Loki out of love of Thor more than loved or accepted the younger prince, in involving them in his daydream, Loki clearly conveys that he STILL VALUES their opinion of him on some level.  Who betrayed Loki first in Thor 2011?  Sif and the Warriors 3.  Who was Loki’s FIRST EVIDENCE that he’ll never be offered the devoted fealty that Thor is offered? Sif and the Warriors 3. This is both a sentimental detail, then, and ALSO proof that Loki will always CONCEPTUALIZE A FRIEND AND POTENTIAL SUBJECT’S BETRAYAL, WILL SCHEMATIZE THAT TREASONOUS ACT, AS THOR’S CHILDHOOD FRIENDS.   Interest side note: most people agree that Fandral was always the least abrasive toward Loki out of all of Thor’s best friends, so appropriate, isn’t it, to see him singled out in his own cameo? 

Now, how about Loki himself. And this frankly I consider the most heartbreaking component:

Red cloak COVERING UP, rather than loudly boasting (as in Avengers Assemble), his signature green and gold garb? 

Loki equates royalty with THOR (who, ironically, later says to Loki-as-Odin, “I’d rather be a good man than a great king (Thor: The Dark World)).”  What does Loki say when Frigga interrupts, and asks what he’s doing?   “I’m giving the people WHAT THEY WANT.”

“The people,” AKA Asgard, Loki is saying–and FULLY CONCEDING/SURRENDERING TO–they want THOR.  Not just THOR THE PERSON, but also ***THE CULTURAL ARCHETYPE THAT THOR EMBODIES.***

The ERASURE of Loki’s own identity, and the ASSUMPTION of Thor’s–

–COMPLETE WITH MJOLNIR–are Loki’s ONE WAY OF RECONCILING HIS HOPE OF EQUALITY WITH HIS “BETTER” BROTHER TO REALITY.  

“I remember a shadow. Living in the shade of your greatness.” (Avengers Assemble).  

***From Loki’s POV, being accepted and loved and SAFE are contingent upon either standing in Thor’s shadow, OR BECOMING THOR.***  

There is no way to be LOKI, and succeed, Loki believes, at this point in the game, exiled to a prison cell for th rest of his natural life, alone, and condemned for behaviors that Odin himself–and Thor, before Thor reformed!!!!–exhibited.   To be Odin and Thor is both INEVITABLE and, because Loki is LOKI, and NOT Odin or Thor, DOOM.  It’s a paradox in which Loki can’t win.  

That Loki longs to erase himself and become Thor, but also full well knows he cannot, is evinced in what he says when Frigga tells him that creating too many illusions means getting lost in them. 

What does he say? And in such a way that you MUST watch the video to get the full gut-punch tragic force of it: 

“Precisely.” With all the sorrow and resignation in the cosmos. “Precisely.”  I want to get lost in the impossible fantasy of being as unilaterally loved as my big brother.  I want to possess all the traits that make a person an Odinson, and therefore, worthy.  But green is not red, it’s red’s complement. 

 Cloaking myself in red will not make me Thor. I’m here in Asgard’s dungeons to prove it.   ****************** 

A note, too, on Loki’s DEMEANOR ONCE CAUGHT: 

First, we feign absolute mad glee. We pretend we don’t give a flying fuck anymore about how others perceive us (taken vastly to the task by the daydream itself).  We rebuff the concerned query of the only person who MIGHT be capable of understanding us (Frigga) with another weapon: humor. 

Then, as it always does with Frigga, who is both compassionate and perceptive, it falls flat.

And that is when we get defensive. That is when all hope is lost.  

Someone on twitter is trying to convince me that Loki’s a bad person because “no one forced him to let go of the Bifrost and end up with Thanos, that was his own decision”.

Have we really gotten to the point where we’re blaming a fictional character for commiting suicide? Is that how far we’ve sunken? Is “well, it’s his own fault he survived his suicide attempt and was then tortured by a madman and forced to attack Earth - shouldn’t have tried to kill himself in the first place” really a position anyone wants to stand behind? REALLY?

“You do not belong.”

“The use of other as a verb is rooted in sociology: to other a certain individual is to treat that individual as fundamentally different from another class of individuals, often by emphasizing their apartness in traits that differ from one’s own.” 

~Reasons as to why Loki is relatable.

A little ironic meta. I hated this scene in TR too.

same bullshit energy