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[Text: This user does not feel comfortable being referred to as plural.]

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I don’t personally care about syscourse. As long as it isn’t hurting anyone, it’s not something I bother myself with.

What I am bothered with is people trying to demedicalise being a system.

Please, please, please do not do this. If you’re spiritually multiple that’s fine but when you mention CDD systems being a disorder as “sanism” it’s only cutting back years of hard work that people with disabling disorders fought hard for.

If you don’t believe your plurality is medical then alright. Just please don’t take away the status of CDD system’s trauma disorder because with that you take away the help that we really need.

Understanding the difference between systemic oppression and social stigma: Why endogenic systems aren't oppressed for being plural, and why that doesn't mean that their struggles are unimportant

Time for the newest syscourse topic, one that I’ve actually been thinking about quite a bit lately. I had a conversation with my very pro-endo friend about it a while back, and it caused me to realize that the entire issue is really that we don’t understand the distinction between oppression and social stigma, and why exactly endogenic plurals are stigmatized, but not oppressed. And why this doesn’t mean that struggles that they do face are “invalid” (boy, do I hate that whole concept. I hate the whole valid thing. It doesn’t do anything any justice.) 

To start off with, it's important to clarify each of these terms. Oppression refers to the systematic mistreatment, subjugation, and denial of rights by those in power against a specific group. On the other hand, social stigma involves societal disapproval or mistreatment directed at individuals who possess certain characteristics or identities. While the two concepts may intersect, they are not synonymous. 

Endogenic plurals, despite facing challenges in the form of social stigma, do not experience systemic oppression in the same way as historically marginalized groups. The comparison I drew in my conversation with the previously mentioned friend was to communities like furries and therians, who similarly encounter varying degrees of societal rejection. While they may be subjected to ridicule, bullying, or social ostracization, these experiences are not the same as being actively oppressed by institutions and systemic structures.

I would also like to highlight that the challenges endogenic plurals face are largely only present within the Western context. Outside of that, they not only ‘would be’ but are very easily accepted, sometimes for religious/spiritual reasons. I had someone from the Middle East (not going to specify which country because I don’t know if anyone knows who this is and would prefer to not dox them lol) describe to me that they once thought that they were endogenic – they were open to their family and community about this, and were very widely accepted for it. It was seen as creative, and a beautiful thing! But once they discovered that they had formed their system through trauma, and that they had DID, it became different. Suddenly it was something to be shunned – this is largely because it isn’t the system that’s the issue. It isn’t the concept of plurality that is an issue, by and large, it’s the trauma. It’s the fact that this is a disabling condition. It’s the fact that when you have DID, you have a rare mental illness. It’s the fact that you are experiencing trauma responses that are unpalatable to those who don’t understand them. 

That’s far from the only story I’ve heard of that type, and I’ve particularly seen a LOT of Asian systems speaking about acceptance of endogenic plurality vs. rejection of DID in their cultures. This is a very West-centric argument, and also goes to show how narrow of a perspective many of the current larger syscoursers pushing endo oppression as a concept have on the subject of oppression. 

You may say, “But, there’s a potential for systemic oppression and violence against endogenic plurals! We just don’t have enough data, because they’re not “out” yet.” My friend said this! I appreciated the point, because it allowed me to highlight my above argument about endogenic plurality outside of the west and also the fact that historical patterns of systemic oppression and the reasoning for such and the examination of parallels with other marginalized groups and their histories with oppression reveal that such concerns are really just… Not warranted. Genuinely, the struggles that endogenic plurals face are much closer to that of the furry community, or that of the therian community. These groups also have to deal with with societal misunderstandings and negative perceptions. Just as with endogenic plurals, the issues they face stem from a lack of understanding rather than a deliberate effort to oppress. If either of those groups were to be open about their identities, they’d face similar struggles – and they do. It’s not exactly the wisest thing to talk to your boss about being a furry or a therian, and it’s liable to get you some hate/bullying/mistreatment directed towards you at some point. It’s stigma.

While endogenic plurals may experience interpersonal mistreatment and possibly even limited job opportunities due to being open about their identities, these challenges are primarily driven by social stigma and negative perceptions. It's worth noting that any systemic violence or marginalization they encounter often stems from an intersection with already marginalized groups, such as the queer or neurodiverse communities. Sure, many endogenic plurals are queer or otherwise neurodiverse, but that intersection and further the violence directed towards it can’t exist without the existence of those other identities. A cishet, white, NT and otherwise non-marginalized endogenic plural isn’t oppressed. A trans, ND, POC who is an endogenic plural is, but not because of their plurality, though it does create a different (and notable) intersection with a few of these aspects. 

It's really important to recognize that conflating social stigma with systemic oppression oversimplifies the experiences of truly systemically oppressed groups, while at the same time not even doing any justice to the issues endogenic plurals themselves DO face. If we can just… Understand that these are two very separate issues, the distinct challenges that endogenic plurals DO face can be more accurately and effectively addressed and advocated for. If we can just ACKNOWLEDGE this, that’s already contributing to a broader, more informed discourse that fosters so much more inclusivity and empathy than what we’ve got right now.

DID being demonised/etherealised is hilarious to me because we’re just regular people with a little more trauma and a little less flesh sack

Avoiding syscourse is nearly impossible in system spaces, and everyone expects you to have an opinion on it.

I don't want to take a side. The majority of my system do.

It's not black and white. Mental health, mental wellness, and saying yay or nay to the possibility of non trauma sourced 'plural' experience looses the natural nuance in human experience.

There are things that haven't been researched about DID... It's completely possible (and likely) that the same goes for those who claim to be non trauma based systems. We know barely anything about the human brain.

I do have issues with some of the bullying, misinformation and other harmful behaviours that I've observed from both sides of the syscourse argument. It’s never okay to send death threats.

The fandom attitude, misinformation, immaturity and other rampant issues in both traumagenic and endogenic spaces need to be addressed before any kind of possible growth can happen.

Seperating the possibility of non trauma sourced plurality from trauma sourced is important, and both groups should have an ability to express themselves without being attacked.

I'm not neutral, nor pro endo, nor anti endo.. there's research that goes both ways (for/against) around endogenic experience... So I'm undecided. All I see are people who've had experiences who should be listened to.

~ Kyle 💜

i refuse to name the account publicly because im not stooping to their level but. Oh that's a slightly popular system account saying its perfectly fine to post endos to syscringe subreddits because they're not being "harassed..." i wanna fight back but. Not worth it :/ (i say this as someone who genuinely doesnt give a shit about syscourse but DOES give a shit about stopping syscringe subreddits)

:( That’s not okay.

No one deserves to be posted to syscringe pages. Endos included. Even when someone is being ridiculous. Posting without their knowledge is NOT okay. It's a much better idea to speak to the person one on one rather than potentially harming them.

I'm fully against sharing content off personal blogs and social media, e.g. screenshots, especially when usernames, and things that could identify the user are included.

There are some exceptions; like when people have tried to do their best to stop the person's behaviour, and it has continued to a point where it needs to be addressed further; for example when the Felix Cypher drama happened and his family was involved.

There's a fine line between analysis and straight up mocking — which is what syscringe and disorder cringe pages do.

Besides, a lot of content posted to those pages simply don't care that some of the people they're laughing at genuinely do have those disorders, and their symptom set is slightly unusual. It's extremely damaging to those who are posted.

That goes for all syscourse stances. I don't care if you're anti-endo, pro-endo or anything in between. There is a person behind almost every single account on the internet, and posting to syscringe is a form of cyberbullying and harassment.

Some people will always be shitty and cruel, however it's up to you [reader], to not contribute.

You know, as someone in an Endo system who discovered the whole Syscourse scene just a few months ago (and who wasn't even a part of the plural community before), it's really, really exhausting.

And I'm not even talking about people disagreeing with Endogenic systems existing or being critical of the community, but just the unwillingness to simply *talk* with each other.

DNI's can be genuinely helpful for those who want to cultivate their own community online and who don't want some people to interact with them to keep themselves comfortable. It's just when I see post after post with people throwing vitriol at others and then just shield themselves with a DNI... Or when I see somebody give some genuinely good examples of how some parts of the Endo community act in harmful ways and then just put an "Endo's DNI" there at the end. In part, I get that. I really do. But it also really stifles discussion (not talking about vents here, just to be clear).

I really just want to talk to people who disagree with me and people like me without worrying that I'll get posted somewhere and laughed at behind my back, or that I'll get hate asks and all. I want to be able to talk with different people and learn new things, and maybe let them know about things that they didn't know about before in turn. But wherever we go, there's always a DNI.

"An endo-friendly server that allows syscourse? DNI anti-endos. Oh, another server that allows syscourse? Cool, maybe we'll- DNI Endos."

There are no respectful places for honest debate. It's just echo chambers, where people either don't want to talk to the other side because they *don't* want to even hear their perspective, or are simply too scared of being hurt and/or bullied to be able to.

It's really exhausting.