My New Favorite Interaction In This Whole Game Is Dick Full-naming Tim

my new favorite interaction in this whole game is dick full-naming tim

though unfortunately i wasn’t paying attention at the time and now the audio’s bad

Tim Drake and Red robin

 Aka the whole identity problem.

So there’s a lot of discussion over Tim and what identity he is going to take up- this is by no means recent, it’s been going on for over a decade. So for a lot of people who are newer to comics I want to explain why Red Robin isn’t really an option as a permanent identity for Tim, and what Red Robin means to Tim personally

Weiterlesen

Funniest thing about Cass becoming the next Batman is if she also has to play up the frivolous multi-millionaire act.

Debutante Cass needing to pretend to be the lucky orphan picked up by Bruce Wayne in some little village in some East Asian country no white person has ever heard of nor cared about.

Cass playing the part of the spoiled, air-headed heiress, which turns out to be shockingly easy because rich people clutch their pearls when she stirs her coffee with the dessert spoon. She's a little disappointed because she watched Legally Blonde and Clueless like 50 times each to memorize and prepare lines.

Cassandra Wayne, wild heiress going to drug-filled parties (to trace the stuff back to the supplier) and hiring sex workers (to investigate whether or not they're human trafficking victims).

Cass attending charity events for photo ops with the most awkward forced smile you can imagine.

My favorite banned terms on this site are "suicide prevention" and "safe sex"

yeah I'm just going to swing a bat at the hornet's nest and wade into the discourse: Tim and Damian were canonically mutually jealous of each other during the pre-reboot era for (ironically) pretty similar reasons, and getting mad about WFA acknowledging it is an indication that you care more about defending your fave than you do about actually understanding what happened and how they've both grown beyond it since then. Is the Tim-Damian conflict in WFA the same as it is in canon? No. Does it have a solid, factual basis in Tim and Damian's canon issues? Yes.

Tim was jealous of Damian principally for two reasons. One, as a brand new adoptee, he felt incredibly insecure about his place in the Wayne family; Damian's demands to be treated with respect because he's Batman's biological son and his constant insults of Tim because Tim isn't hit Tim hard because of it. Tim feels like he's had to work incredibly hard to earn Bruce's love and respect while Damian gets it by default (which....lots to unpack there, but moving on), and the hurt that this causes combined with Damian's arrogant and cruel dismissal of Tim as a member of the family simply because he's not biologically related influences Tim's continued negative opinion of Damian. The dinosaur incident also doesn't help matters. Thus, he's resentful that Damian was (from his perspective) immediately accepted into the family despite his behavior towards them and hurt because he feels like his own place in the family is being denied by the newcomer.

Two, after losing so much and so many people and finally achieving a tiny bit of equilibrium in his life when Bruce adopts him, Damian shows up and, in his mind, more or less replaces him as the center of everyone's attention. This isn't really Damian's fault (his upbringing, trauma, and learned behaviors make him an incredibly difficult child who needs a lot of time, care, and attention from the adults around him), but Tim is right in that the second Damian shows up, he gets somewhat de-prioritized and trusted to handle himself in a time period where he's emotionally vulnerable and desperately craving positive attention and validation from his "new" family.

These feelings get touched on in multiple issues, particularly Batman & Son and Red Robin #1:

"What about us?" /// "If he is my son-even if he's not-he deserves some love and respect." "So let him earn it, like everyone else." -Batman #657 (Batman and Son)

"How can you let him wear that costume, Dick? What earth are we on that you choose him over me?" /// "Sorry, Drake. You're still part of the team--maybe the Batgirl costume is available." [Tim punches Damian in the face] "My name is Tim Wayne!" -Red Robin #1

Are Bruce and Dick actually choosing Damian over Tim? No, they're not. Dick is actually explicitly trying to express that he loves, respects, and trusts Tim (both as a person and as a competent vigilante) by calling Tim his "equal" and giving Damian the Robin mantle. But Tim is insecure and hurting and grieving throughout this entire period in his life, and he isn't thinking the most rationally about the situation. This is a moment that very reasonably feels like a betrayal to Tim, who sees it as Dick taking away the one stable thing he has left in the aftermath of Bruce dying, and then Damian walks into the room and implicitly denies him a place in the family. He feels replacable and unneeded, and his jealousy and resentment of Damian throughout this period are ultimately less about Damian personally (any personal dislike of Damian he has is largely due to other issues) and more about his own emotional instability and the insecurity he feels as an adoptee.

Meanwhile, Damian was jealous of Tim for the exact same reasons that he's jealous of Cass in Gates of Gotham: Bruce and Dick's easy trust in and respect of Tim, both as a person and as a vigilante, and the fact that Bruce chose Tim to be part of his family and never chose Damian (even though Bruce accepted him anyway). He views Tim as a threat and rival for his father's affections, and to that end his constant insults towards Tim tend to lean in two directions: undermining his place in the family and undermining his competence as a vigilante. Both types of insults are the direct outgrowth of Damian's own insecurities about his place in the family.

Damian has a notable and recurring desire to feel useful, competent, and accepted within the Batfam. It's explicitly what Damian wants most in this era: to be accepted and for his skills to be recognized. Dick even comments on it during the Hit List arc: "he practically bleeds a need to be accepted." In many ways, Damian thinks that if he’s not succeeding at proving his competency and usefulness, he’s failing at proving he’s worthy to stay in Gotham, and his consistent prickliness towards other people is often a front to cover up his insecurities about these things. This crops up pre-reboot literally as early as Batman and Son:

"But she's not there now, is she? Because she wants something from Great Britain in exchange for the life of the Prime Minister's wife and I think I know what it is." "It's Gibraltar! She wants the garrison at Gibraltar! See? I can be useful!" -Batman & Son (2006)

And as late as Gates of Gotham, when he gets angry and snappy at Cass because she pulled him away from disabling the bomb at Elliot Tower (in his mind, undermining his competence as a vigilante) and promptly starts insulting her behind her back:

"Cassandra's not useless." "No. She's spineless, naive, and fragile. And I don't trust her." "You don't trust anyone..." "And your eagerness to trust makes you weak." "Well, deny it all you want...but I think we both know the only real reason you don't like her...is that she's just one more person your father picked over you." -Gates of Gotham #3

It's also explicitly noted during the infamous Red Robin Hit List arc, where Damian talks about how "it isn't fair" that Tim still doesn't trust him despite all of the work he's put in to change his thoughts, behavior, and tactics from how he was taught in the League. He lashes out at Tim during "The Hit List" because he'd finally gained some measure of trust and respect from Dick and some personal equilibrium in his life...and then Tim comes swooping back into Gotham after having gained the respect of Damian's grandfather and proceeds to unearth the surprise revelation that Bruce (the father who rejected Damian) respected Tim enough to hand over (nominal) control of Wayne Enterprises to him, poach on his quality time with Dick, and continue to distrust Damian despite his very real struggles to change.

You feel a lot for Damian during the Reborn era because you can chart a direct path between the hurt he feels at being seemingly rejected by the one person he'd desperately wanted approval from for years–Bruce–and the ways in which he lashes out at Dick, Tim, Alfred, etc when suddenly not too long after that incident Bruce is dead and he's stuck with this group of people who clearly and obviously don't like or trust him. He's constantly trying to prove himself as worthy of being there and, very reasonably, gets frustrated and hurt and angry when his efforts are met with continued distrust and hostility.

Tim's continued lack of trust (which Tim has for good but genuinely misguided reasons!) feeds into Damian's resentment and jealousy of him; this is especially true given that Tim is consistently portrayed as competent, trusted, and deeply loved by basically every other member of the Batfam–particularly by Dick and later Bruce, the two people whose opinions Damian values most–during this time period. So yeah: Damian is jealous of Tim too, and his behavior towards Tim is largely indicative of that plus his frustration at Tim's continued distrust of him. His methods of dealing with that hurt (cutting Tim's line and trying to fight him afterwards) are absolutely unacceptable and are treated as such, but they come from a totally understandable place.

Luckily "The Hit List" is basically THE lowest point for Tim and Damian’s relationship. It starts improving immediately after this; multiple writers showcase a definite shift in Tim and Damian’s dynamic after that point, and by the time we get to Gates of Gotham (the last time they interact pre-reboot), we were getting scenes like this:

Gates of Gotham #3

They were absolutely still prickly and kinda rude towards each other (and I wouldn’t necessarily say they liked each other), but they had very clearly grown, were on much better terms, and were able to trust each other while working and fighting together. They've both individually matured and grown enough to the point where they're able to start moving on from that initial period of distrust and jealousy and move forward into a new era (and then we get the reboot, but that's a different discussion for another day).

tl;dr: Yes, Tim was jealous of Damian. Yes, Damian was jealous of Tim. Those are both objective facts that canon addressed and dealt with in a variety of different ways throughout the pre-reboot era. Tim and Damian are jealous and resentful of each other largely because they're two traumatized kids who feel deeply insecure about their place in the family and the utility of their skills in a time of immense personal upheaval. Neither of them are totally right; neither are totally wrong. Both of them act terribly towards each other because of it, and I refuse to let people blame the entirety of this conflict on one of them or pretend like their mutual jealousy of each other didn't exist and didn't contribute to their behavior.