Okay See You Get It Though. I Hope You Don't Mind If I Go On A Bit About My Thoughts About Ascended Astarion

Okay see you get it though. I hope you don't mind if I go on a bit about my thoughts about ascended Astarion because I feel like a lot of his character gets misinterpreted.

First off one of the things I see most in fanfics for him is that he's changed and lost himself, or that he's all of a sudden evil. I don't think that's true, he's always been possessive, controlling, and evil it's just now he has the power to actually act on those things.

for possessive it's clear that once you romance him he’s not much for sharing but may put up with it out of fear that the first person he's ever cared about will leave him if he doesn't bend to them, on top of that even if he did act on those tendencies not only would the party back Tav up, both verbally and physically if it got to that point as most of the party doesn't trust him, but Tav is also scary to fight 1v1. In becoming an ascendent and Tav becoming his bride/groom he actually has the power to push and sway them with little to no repercussions as by that point there's very little anyone can do to stop him and if Tav has agreed to become his spawn, literally dying for him, it's safe for him to assume he has them wrapped around his finger

The controlling and evil part is more obvious but also glossed over as you need to make persuasion checks for him to give up control in certain situations while a lot of his approval choices are just cruel or evil. Be it because he was like that before he died, he's a spawn that normally becomes evil by D&D rules, or he's just had so much abuse and cruelty inflicted on him that seeing it done to others for once feels good. He actively dislikes being kind because it's something he needed but never got, so much so that the only way he really becomes “good” is because Tav has the choice to gently push him into becoming so. Without Tav and them being kind or growing close to him if he had theoretically been able to do everything on his own, he absolutely would have ascended without even thinking twice.

Also the idea that he no longer loves tav after ascending makes no real sense to me either, while I havent confirmed it for myself apparently if you're bit romancing him its easier to convince him to stop the ritual then it is if you're romancing him. To me that speaks volumes because while he's scared and looking power to protect himself, he's also now doing it because he loves and cares about someone. He wants to protect tav and in his mind this is the best way to do it. A lot of people at this point point to the whole “he’ll always view you as degrading yourself” line but to me, that's always felt like him knowing that you could walk away, and be something greater than just his. Is he powerful? Yes, but that doesn't mean the scars have healed no matter how much he may pretend, that leaves a lot of fear and self-hate to linger. Tav as a character is either set up to be a believed hero or a ruler as the absolute (either in bhaals name or their own) so by choosing to become his spawn you are essentially giving up the power and glory willingly and I think on some level he knows that even if at the point he doesn't know exactly what is being given up.

I think this is reflected well when he says “you have given me everything. Thank you” its the most sincere we hear him after he ascends because he's right. As the player we've given him power, love, and are willing to tie ourselves to him forever thus forgoing anything else we could have been or done. As to why that's the most sincere we hear from him? Because it's private, he can be vulnerable with the person he loves and who's never turned their back on him but for others, he doesn't have that assurance and thus in his mind he can't afford to show weakness so, of course, he's going to come off as a bit colder and distant, he loves the player but showing weakness and vulnerability to anyone but them puts both him and them in danger.

I've pointed out that Astarion is not a good guy in the beginning. People want to play him off as some kind of prince when he's the exact opposite. He's the guy your family will disown you over, possibly the guy who will convince you to kill them for disapproving of him too.

When Larian's interview stated that Ascended Astarion is still Astarion, I was convinced that this wasn't a change at all. This is just who he was, only amplified and over time, he will come down from it. To what level, who knows, but with "mortal pleasures", possibly leaning into feelings, mixed in, he's not going to be able to keep that up without sheer exhaustion following. He feels LONELY after only 6 months.

I mean, if you look back at him throughout the game, it's basically foreshadowing what you have on your hands, and still do if you go the spawn route. There's no telling if he will act this way if you bring him back to life as he would have more options for seizing any kind of power, something he's been trying to do the entire ride. It's ten times worse if you're romancing him as you've been pulled into that fold. It feels like no matter what you do for him, he's always going to be vying for power, even if he doesn't outright say it. You would LITERALLY have to sit on him to make sure he doesn't kill someone or go bolting for some artifact with rumored power behind your back given his personality. The temptation will ALWAYS be there.

I'm not sure if DnD vampire rules even apply to him becoming evil or not considering they don't really touch on his life BEFORE Cazador. All we really know is he was a magistrate and he did something to piss the Gur off and it got him killed, though I'm more of the camp that Cazador 100% staged it to get ahold of him. I am also of the camp that the way he approves of things hinges on the fact that he's been conditioned that people in power have to be cruel so he will be the same, like faking it until he makes it.

If Tav wasn't an adventurer or someone who didn't prove themselves throughout the game through wit and strength, I'd say, yeah, Astarion could get away with hurting them and all and not have to worry about repercussions but that isn't the case. Any Tav can CRUSH and outsmart him and has made enough allies to do it. Wouldn't matter if Tav goes along with the abuse, if word gets out that Astarion is hurting them, he will have a POWERFUL army at his door to take him down and talk sense into Tav. He'll have another Karlach on his hands if Tav wakes up. Reducing Tav to this meek, weak little victim and that being their only personality under his rule after everything they've been through is just... I don't know, strange? And I'm not minimizing anything either. I've seen relationship abuse before, even written fics highlighting it in the past, and how it can happen, it's just this comes off more as projecting than anything we've seen in-game.

Even if Tav was an embraced Dark Urge, Bhaal is NOT going to stand for his Chosen to be treated that way. They are his avatar, after all. One word from Bhaal and DU is going to kill Astarion, no questions asked. The Dark Urge isn't going to risk angering their father now that they're back in his good graces AND have been gifted the Slayer form, something Fel says they've been wishing for for so long. Being ascended is nothing in the eyes of the God of Murder. Astarion has a lot more riding on how he treats Tav than one thinks and I don't think he's dumb enough to put his own life in danger like that. He's self-preserving and that would come first and foremost despite having any kind of power. Villains tend to build up their defenses.

I do believe Astarion, ascended or otherwise, loves Tav. There isn't a doubt in my mind that he doesn't. The separate difficulties in talking him down during the ascension and the fact he wants them to live their best life give it away. It's silly to think that he'd lose all feelings for Tav JUST because he ascended. If anything, it magnified them. It's not like if Tav turns into a Mindflayer without a soul or anything when it would make sense lore-wise (I mean, even Withers points it out and the idea that Mindflayers only retain memories, they're no longer the person they once were) and he'll end up mourning their loss. He's still got some stuff to work out, but it's still there. He has an issue with that word which is another thing that goes over people's heads.

I do agree with you on the whole degrading thing. It's not in the way Tav is sullying themselves, it's just them giving up so many other, potentially more powerful options which could be toxic for Astarion and make him try to push himself to be more powerful to make up for it if he thinks he can to strive to be something Tav may want or deserves. It's on the same level as Gale trying to impress you with magic and such and you have to tell him that he's enough to have your attention.

I think Astarion is a mostly private person forced to be out in the open in general, which is why you can only get genuine and sincere reactions out of him in private. Everything else is announced otherwise as he's used to being essentially a prostitute for all to gawk at.

Let's face it too, if Tav can "gently" push Astarion into doing "good" before, like most "good" Tavs do, nothing is saying they can't do that after he ascends either. His personality has not changed that drastically. It's only amplified. You grounded him as a spawn, he'll need the same treatment after ascending too as he's riding that power high that hits him with everything he hasn't felt in 200 years. He needs to get that out of his system.

i really thought fans who hate ascend astarion got his ending and then hated it. They are so pissed off about vampire bride groom thing saying it’s not canon, but then scream that he lied that tav/dark urge will hurt a bit when becoming a spawn. But it is true that it only hurt a bit, so i’m so confused. They refuse to see the evidences in the scene and how there was “ascend astarion still has soul” but no “tav/dark urge is not vampire bride groom.”

the bride theory exists in this weird state of canonisity where there are a lot of similarities in game to draw the conclusion, but because it isnt outright stated in game or by the devs to be true. i think thats intentional, its an rpg so they would want to leave some elements ambigious so you, the player, can decide what the story is based on your actions via roleplay. in this perspective, all theories have a certain level of validity in regard to canon.

as for it being painful, like. no duh? being ensanguinated isnt going to be pleasant. that doesnt make it morally wrong, and plus if your pc accepted lovitar's blessing its thematically satisfying (which is why i almost always choose "make it hurt" over "be gentle", you know its going to hurt. you welcome the pain. the pain becomes pleasure and vice versa. ascention and becoming his spawn is wearing the pain of trauma on your sleeve and not being ashamed of it.)

which, this really gets me when it comes to the idea that aa is inherently abusive. you could read it that way, but its just as well you can read it as two sickos being weird about their attachment to eachother. the rejection of the idea the player character can be an enthusiastic participant has somehow led to this, frankly insulting and cartoonish, depiction of a!astarion as a wife-beating rapist and the player character as a meek damsel. which i think is so wildly out of character. write a!a as toxic all you want, he is literally neutral evil, but for some reason people think an evil character has to be the most extreme characature possible, rather than the complex web of motives, flaws, sympathies, and personal standards a!astarion is.

this also denies the agency of actual people to extrapolate their own personal mean from the experience, what of a player character that would sacrifice anything just because astarion asked? what of a player character that was just as obsessed with him as he is with them? these ideas just dont compute in the minds of folks who insist you have to read astarion the One True Way

this got really rambly, but ultimately my point is that it is up to interpretation, intentionally so, and the team (welch not widthstanding lol) have pretty much expressed this exact sentiment. again, duh, because its a roleplaying game that encourages you to self insert.

Not to make excuses, but Ascended Astarion never sounded sincere when saying, "I love you" may be a product of not wanting to say it. I noticed that when he says those words, and the Act 1 spawn version, his expression changes.

In Act 1 during the scene where he's throwing all those pick up lines at you his face reads like he's into it. He's confident, he seems to be enjoying the moment. Honestly, that scene almost comes off like a friend just shooting the shit with you rather than an attempt at manipulation.

Then that expression falls away when he says those three little words. I get the feeling he's said those words so many times to people he cared nothing for that he just can't say them without feeling detached.

Perhaps, even when he does love Tav, those words just feel false on his tongue. Like he feels obligated to say them. Man can think of 1000s of ways to express desire and affection, but those words will always be too taint to carry weight.

I know I feel like that. I can say I love you to an animal and mean it. However, I hate saying it to people. Especially when they say it first and it's expected I return it. Otherwise, I'm clearly a terrible person.

True!

I'm hoping for more expanded interactions with companions and with Lord Astarion in the next patches, maybe Definitive if that happens.

*Aggressively looking at the artwork with Briarwoods* THIS MOOD YES

I think if we were allowed to hug Astarion more and show non-sexual affection in both forms, he'd get that twig out of his ass once he ascends B/

Oh, to just walk up and hug him after ascension, echoing the hug we gave him after he confessed. Wonder how'd he react. Words are nothing compared to actions, and that hug proves it.

So much can still be done for him in this form and too many people are sleeping on it.

Why can't we be the next Briarwoods? That woman will do anything for her vampire husband and that is a MOOD.

It happens. Draco in Leather Pants Geez, I love his past at EA, the release is silent about it. In any case the fact that this past was linked to him shows what kind of image Astarion has. Astarion is complex and... dark on his own.

Seeing the recent posts about this I wanted to share my own thoughts- there's something that seriously bothers me about the spawn fans: It's the infantilization, fetishization of reducing Astarion to just his victimhood. He is MORE than a victim. He clearly shows signs of still vaguely knowing things from his identity before those 200 years of torture, if not a little bit, but people see the SA / forced prostitution part of his story and reduce him to just being a victim. Not a person who has ambition, desires, flaws, wants and needs, has evil thoughts or says mean things at times. Nono, its just a ''I can fix him, I can fix the broken bad boy :>>>'' It's also very clear he does seem interested in reclaiming his sexuality no matter which ending you choose.. Spawn fans Saying Astarion is asexual and completely sex repulsed and getting loudly upset when people draw nsfw of him makes no sense. It feels like projection and entitlement. There's enough asexual/demisexual folks out there who do have interest in sex, as sexuality is a spectrum- but it is the aligning asexuality with victimhood that is massively problematic, it stigmatizes asexuality into a; ''No, you're broken now, you can't have interest in that anymore'' I am someone who identifies as male and experienced SA, I am neither asexual or sex repulsed. I refuse to be reduced to a victim. It's incredibly infantilizing. If I was a vampire in a fantasy world and had the chance to grab power, I would go nuts lol. The chaos and luxury sounds fun! Trauma is not someone's sole identity. Someone who experienced trauma can be a neutral evil character, ''cycle of abuse'' my ass. His future interests have nothing to do with what Cazador did to him. He has his revenge and then moves on to a waking dream. To heal. Regardless of what ending you pick, he has personhood, he has flaws- he has identity outside of his trauma. He's more complex than just ''the victim'' Hope this makes sense :( It's just very upsetting to see spawn fans go crazy over this shit.

Remember what I said about blurring the lines between reality and fantasy? This is one of the biggest culprits. This is a form of dehumanization and what people THINK abuse survivors will do/want/be instead of facing the reality of the situation.

Unfortunately, I've also seen this behavior across fandoms in some of the most disgusting displays of virtue signaling and trying to be saviors that no one needs. It was everywhere in the Undertale fandom alone when it came to aging characters up only being reserved for "abuse victims", of course, AFTER they already harassed the person.

It does a disservice to those who experience any kind of abuse, and treating them vastly differently than those who haven't can stunt healing. It's just as damaging as telling them to "get over it and move on." Even ignoring abuse survivors, which is the exact opposite of what needs to be done, in favor of preferred opinions of them as if they're headcanons or their trauma as props to be used willy nilly and/or using it as a control tactic is disrespectful to everyone.

We all process things differently and push through it on our own terms. Hell, in Fall Out New Vegas, there's an SA survivor who goes in the exact opposite direction that Astarion does and almost becomes an abuser herself as a form of trying to take control back. She scared the living shit out of me when I first encountered her because it was the first time I saw that kind of behavior from an SA survivor. Both Astarion and Halsin handle their experiences differently too and no one babies Halsin the way they do Astarion because he tries to hide his more or brushes it off as if it's nothing. Halsin just drops that bomb after the Drow Twin romp.

While I like to put Astarion on the asexuality spectrum with some interest in sex with the right person due to how he's written and the graveyard scene, I don't do it because of his trauma. I'm asexual. I'm aromantic IRL too, though sex and romance are perfectly fine for me in fantasy. One of the biggest stigmas for asexuality is that you HAD to have been attacked to be one. It's the other way around. Asexuality is just the lack of sexual attraction. It CAN be a trauma response but, as I stated, we all process trauma differently. In most cases, the ace spectrum is naturally occurring. Let's not ignore that he is willing to sleep with Tav when he feels the time is right.

Astarion has proved he doesn't have an issue with sex. His issue is being seen as a sex object. He says it outright after the Araj incident and it gets ignored by fans for the sake of infantizing. Newsflash peeps: He WILL break up with you if you don't take him seriously and continue using him as an object. They highlight his personhood RIGHT THERE in that scene. Astarion needs time to process having autonomy again after 200 years of PURE SHIT. He's learning he can say no if he does not wish to do something he doesn't want to do, see if you take him to the Drow Twins and they offer a foursome. He's unlearning his conditioning.

Tav is being respectful by giving him his space and letting him figure his stuff out like a true lover/friend does. Tav does not treat him like a victim so why should anyone else? How Astarion's situation was handled in-game is how everyone should be treating it. Serious, respectful, and loving. I just wish Gale's and Wyll's situations were handled as seriously instead of being played off as jokes.

Astarion is a sassy, ride-or-die prick who you want to run amok with around Faerun. He's mean, fun, chaotic, hilarious, dangerous, and hits like a truck if you give him the right weapons. He is definitely bigger than his trauma.

And HELL YEAH, I'd be doing the same damn thing if I was a vampire. In a world like BG3, power is king considering everything you can find yourself up against. You just have to be careful about how you go about obtaining it so it doesn't bite you in the ass. Anyone who says they wouldn't is lying to themselves because they'll always find a reason to rationalize the need for it >XD I think that's what makes Ascended Astarion cathartic for me since it seems he got away scot-free because the contract was in Cazador's name and IF he had to give up a soul for it, he gave up Cazador's twice >XD I'm also the unhinged one hunting people down in GTA 5 with a tank so this would be on par for me XD Chaos Baby!

Thank you for sharing, btw. That couldn't have been easy. I know it's upsetting when people reduce trauma to a personality trait, and you're valid for feeling that way. I hope you're thriving despite all of that. I'm aware that male SA survivors have a harder time being taken seriously which is a travesty of its own. Hope you have a great rest of your day!

~Tarot~

THE DEVIL. — Ravage, violence, vehemence, extraordinary efforts, force, fatality; that which is predestined but is not for this reason evil. Reversed: Evil fatality, weakness, pettiness, blindness.

The Devil